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But in all seriousness, there are some of us, namely "just June" who truly just wants to know.
Is there a secret message there? Think about it:
U - R - E - T
!!!
Seriously though - what you are witnessing June is a rebellion against dark age fundamentalism. A belief that billions of souls (in fact the vast majority of all humanity) created in God's image will writhe in eternal agony.
Think about that for a moment, let it really sink in. (AKA: Selah)
I think it was Thomas Paine who said "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man".
Passionate URs exist through a belief that an understanding of God's core nature (love) is very important, and that mainstream Christianity greatly misrepresents it.
It's true that that the subject doesn't come up a lot in church. Most people (it seems) are a bit shallow and sleep well as (they say they believe) their neighbors are sliding into an eternal fire in droves.
It's the elephant in the room that you can get kicked out of Christianity for questioning or pointing out.
LARGE chunks of Christianity do think the most important thing of all is how to make sure you don't go to an eternal hell. And really - if eternal hell is true, how could it NOT be the most important thing?
If I may comment,
there is an underlying belief at the core of the ET/UR debate, or at least one. It is this:
"God helps those who help themselves." vs. "God helps those who CANNOT help themselves."
It's almost as though the debate boils down to, "are you strong enough? Have you got what it takes?"
I don't know about you June, but my heritage is pagan heritage. I am not of Jewish heritage. Christianity was preached to pagans, pagans became Christians, and pagan beliefs were not "automatically purged" from their Christianity. (Use of icons, paintings/pictures, repetitive prayers, etc. that we still see today, and that Jews would consider sacrilege.) And since pagans traditionally held a belief in deities who were angry and who would put them in a fire if they misbehaved, this could easily be transferred to Jesus' teachings about judgement, etc.
But the truth is, that judgement is a good thing. God's holiness is a Good thing. People say, "God is love, but He is also holy." They are saying that holiness equates with punishment. This is pagan, imo.
So while we can talk all day about "I have the mind of Christ" and "I have been saved," we still bring with us a long long tradition of pagan understandings of God. These traditions can only be removed by God. And I fear we have a whole lot that needs to be removed in us, including in myself.
If we are seeking Jesus, we are seeking truth. And the truth doesn't hide.
June has a question. June's question arises more or less out of some of the threads she reads each day. June has to admit: In being a nonbeliever, perhaps there are times when 'just June' just doesn't "get it." (She seriously doubts it, though.) --But June can't help but wonder what's the deal? Isn't there more to Christianity and more to being a Christian than this raging debate that somehow rises up, and takes over? (June gets the "somehow" part...Just a bit of light heartedness on June's part.) --But in all seriousness, there are some of us, namely "just June" who truly just wants to know.
Yes, there a a lot more to it, and people come here to discuss issues related to the Bible and Christianity. However, certain UR believers come here only to attack Christians beliefs. If you have been reading the threads you know who I am talking about. They are those who do nothing but take stabs at Christians, their beliefs. They lie, and misrepresent everything related to Christians beliefs, and do their darnest to make believers look like hateful idiots who kill their children so they wouldn't go to hell. Just yesterday, and the day before one of them declared that he has NEVER seen a Christian say that Christ came here to save sinners, and it is simply not true. So, what are the believers supposed to do about that? Lies have to be corrected, and the corrections lead to practically every thread ending up in an UR/Christian argument.
I can assure you I do not come to discuss UR. I have absolutely no interest in it, or anything related to it, but since this place has been overrun with them, they attack every thread and turn it into a UR debate. It seems to me their mission is to silence all discussion about Christian faith. UR is banned from most Christian forums for the same reason aggressive atheists (not the gentle kind like you) are kept out: for attacking and misrepresenting Christian faith.
The problem with UR is the fact that it is designed to destroy the foundation of Christian belief (John 3:16) that Christ came to bring salvation to people who will believe in Him and that a person is saved by faith in Christ. It is every Christians duty to correct teaching which declare that faith is not necessary. So, the fights will continue as long as URs continue to offer unbiblical teachings.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 07-21-2010 at 06:43 AM..
--But June (with all due respect) wouldn't agree with that. She says that due to the fact that she has three very dear friends who adhere to "ET" and they are certainly among the more "loving" and caring friends that June knows...Which, in part, comprises a large part of her confusion around this whole issue. None of the three have ever "preached" ET to me, and we have naturally had many, many conversations together amongst ourselves as regards Christianity. (For "just June" reasons obvious...)
Hi June,
I have no doubt that your three dear friends are in fact very loving. I would agree there are many Christians who believe in ET who are very loving. Regarding the fate of ET for others, many simply hope and pray for the best and leave it in God's hands.
But to clarify I am talking about their love for you in the future after life. The fact of the matter is this: if they truly believe in ET, then they believe that you, June, will one day be burning in torment forever if you don't accept Christ right now.
When and if you should happen to end up in burning in eternal torment, what would their love for you do about it? I have seen three different answers from people who believe in ET:
1. they would be sad that you are burning forever, but at least they would be joyful they are with God
2. they wouldn't even remember you are burning forever
3. they would actually be gladthat you are burning forever because it would be "justice"
You can search the forum and find these three views expressed. This is where love breaks down in the ET view. This is where love fails in the ET view. Because their love will simply be unable to do any thing for you, or will forget about you, or *horror of horrors* they will derive pleasure from your endless torment.
June, think about what ET entails - think about yourself being burned in torment (either physically or mentally) for an hour, for a day, for a year, for a century, continuously, non-stop. Really think about it. It would be awful; it would be torture, but it is nothing compared to being burned for forever. If that was really your fate, wouldn't your three friends be doing everything they could to get you out of that situation? Yet their own beliefs show that they can ultimately do nothing for you once you are in endless torment. Love does not overcome all in the ET belief system.
ET really is the elephant in the room - no one wants to talk about it because it is so awful, yet if it were true, it should be the only thing we should be talking about - so that no one would go there. In that sense, why aren't your friends trying to drag you from what they may feel is your eternal doom?
Quote:
--And yet, never has the ET/UR issue come up in any of those conversations as being the "cornerstone" of what is at the heart of Christianity. And so, June is curious....
Take gentle care.
Most people don't know anything about biblical UR, yet it is the only belief that makes sense and is consistent with scripture.
June has a question. June's question arises more or less out of some of the threads she reads each day. June has to admit: In being a nonbeliever, perhaps there are times when 'just June' just doesn't "get it." (She seriously doubts it, though.) --But June can't help but wonder what's the deal? Isn't there more to Christianity and more to being a Christian than this raging debate that somehow rises up, and takes over? (June gets the "somehow" part...Just a bit of light heartedness on June's part.) --But in all seriousness, there are some of us, namely "just June" who truly just wants to know.
Here's the thing: June is hardly unfamiliar with the bible. June has even been known to read it, upon (somewhat rare) ocassion. However, but for the fact that June reads as many threads as she does on an ongoing basis, this whole "ET/UR" debate would never have entered June's consciousness! So the (hopefully?) not-so-dumb-but-ever-respectful nonbeliever just wants to know:
Is there anything else that is noteworthy to discuss as regards Christianity, or does it all boil down to this one debate? Because June sometimes wonders whether at some point she will fall asleep at night, and the letters "ET/UR" will appear to her in her dreams! --Which would give the "just shrink" in "just June" pause!
~So tell June: Is there more to Christianity than this? Tell June: What is it? Because she really wants to know.
A most respectful thanks in advance to whoever wishes to respond.
Take gentle care.
Being an ex-Christian myself...you have a very valid point June. Also, being unbiased in matters biblical...it is clear that the teachings of UR and ET are both valid...and contained within the biblical writings. Does this cause confusion? Of course it does. There are many issues in the bible that are not only contradictory but extremely confusing, whether one wants to be HONEST and acknowledge that fact or not, especially to those who are first learning and so, they rely on others to teach them what the biblical writings say. By relying on others, one is only receiving their opinion/interpretation of what the scriptures say.
So, why is there so much bickering on issues that could go either way? I will tell you why...because opinions/interpretations (and that is all we are REALLY sharing here on CD) are like...(well you know where I'm going with this)....everyone has one and everyone thinks THEIR OPINION/INTERPRETATION is the RIGHT ONE and they will proceed to condemn anyone who provides any information that is contrary.
Now with that being said, will this particular issue ever be resolved or, for that matter, any contradictory issue in scripture? Absolutely not! Because what most Christians don't understand, is that their particular beliefs are a product of their environment as they were growing up, i.e., their parents, pastors, preachers, etc., or of the pastors, preachers, teachers who taught them later in life. This then becomes their personal doctrine and dogma that they will not waver from. Most Christians WILL NOT take the time to CRITICALLY EXAMINE their beliefs unbiasedly by looking at all sides of the issue and not just the one they already believe in...most will only look for evidence that confirms their current belief system...THIS IS A FACT!
Unlike most Christians, I DID take the time required to CRITICALLY EXAMINE my beliefs (especially after seeing the multitude of contradictory issues in the bible) by studying ancient archeology, ancient history, ancient mythology, ancient comparative religions, astrotheology, the origins of religious beliefs, the origin of the bible, etc...and it led me not only completely away from ET but from religion itself altogether. When I understood exactly where it all originated and how it all evolved to what it is today...it was completely untenable to hold onto any kind of biblical belief whatsoever and this not only holds true for Christianity but for any religious beliefs.
Now...don't shoot the messenger because I do believe there is something higher than myself...but I can freely admit that I don't know what that is and neither does anyone else...whether they want to be honest and admit that to themselves or not. I am like Thomas, I will have to see it to believe it and if there is a God and he holds that against me...then so be it...but I am pretty confident that NONE OF US has any clue who or what God/the higher power/the source of all (for lack of a better term) is.
There is one thing that I did take away from my years of Christianity and that is to LOVE ALL...treating others the way I want to be treated, helping my fellow man the best way I know how, doing my best to make this a better place to be not only for me and others that I come in contact with but for future generations. Not focusing on or worrying about what will happen after I take my last breath but living in the NOW...LOVING IN THE NOW. Why is it that so many focus on what happens in an alleged afterlife but never on what is happening in this present life, which in my opinion, is the ONLY life we have. Why do others WASTE so much precious time focusing on things that do not really matter NOW...things that in NO WAY enhance your living experience or anyones elses, for that matter, NOW?
To be completely honest with all of you, when I hear anyone speak about ET, it just makes me cringe because I know how completely destructive that type of teaching is...it does not in any way, shape, form or fashion show that God loves anyone. Unconditional love is just that...unconditional. How can you show love when you are teaching condemnation and fear? Teaching anyone that they will be burned eternally for not obeying, following and worshipping God sends the completely WRONG message that Jesus tried to convey and the only people you will attact with this type of message are those who are afraid...there is NO LOVE involved in this.
So what I think June is trying to convey is that there are many other things Jesus taught Christians should be doing and focusing on and that his main theme was LOVE...being true servants to those around us, helping one another, loving one another, living peacefully with one another, instead of all the bickering, arguing, judgment and condemnation that is present when contradictory biblical issues that CANNOT NOW nor EVER WILL BE resolved ensue. Let's live and let live, agree to disagree and start speaking about and sharing with one another what we can all do and are doing presently to LOVE and help our fellow man.
OK...I got a tad long winded and I'm off of my soapbox now...ya'll have a GREAT DAY!!!
Being an ex-Christian myself...you have a very valid point June. Also, being unbiased in matters biblical...it is clear that the teachings of UR and ET are both valid...and contained within the biblical writings. Does this cause confusion? Of course it does. There are many issues in the bible that are not only contradictory but extremely confusing, whether one wants to be HONEST and acknowledge that fact or not, especially to those who are first learning and so, they rely on others to teach them what the biblical writings say. By relying on others, one is only receiving their opinion/interpretation of what the scriptures say.
So, why is there so much bickering on issues that could go either way? I will tell you why...because opinions/interpretations (and that is all we are REALLY sharing here on CD) are like...(well you know where I'm going with this)....everyone has one and everyone thinks THEIR OPINION/INTERPRETATION is the RIGHT ONE and they will proceed to condemn anyone who provides any information that is contrary.
Now with that being said, will this particular issue ever be resolved or, for that matter, any contradictory issue in scripture? Absolutely not! Because what most Christians don't understand, is that their particular beliefs are a product of their environment as they were growing up, i.e., their parents, pastors, preachers, etc., or of the pastors, preachers, teachers who taught them later in life. This then becomes their personal doctrine and dogma that they will not waver from. Most Christians WILL NOT take the time to CRITICALLY EXAMINE their beliefs unbiasedly by looking at all sides of the issue and not just the one they already believe in...most will only look for evidence that confirms their current belief system...THIS IS A FACT!
Unlike most Christians, I DID take the time required to CRITICALLY EXAMINE my beliefs (especially after seeing the multitude of contradictory issues in the bible) by studying ancient archeology, ancient history, ancient mythology, ancient comparative religions, astrotheology, the origins of religious beliefs, the origin of the bible, etc...and it led me not only completely away from ET but from religion itself altogether. When I understood exactly where it all originated and how it all evolved to what it is today...it was completely untenable to hold onto any kind of biblical belief whatsoever and this not only holds true for Christianity but for any religious beliefs.
Now...don't shoot the messenger because I do believe there is something higher than myself...but I can freely admit that I don't know what that is and neither does anyone else...whether they want to be honest and admit that to themselves or not. I am like Thomas, I will have to see it to believe it and if there is a God and he holds that against me...then so be it...but I am pretty confident that NONE OF US has any clue who or what God/the higher power/the source of all (for lack of a better term) is.
There is one thing that I did take away from my years of Christianity and that is to LOVE ALL...treating others the way I want to be treated, helping my fellow man the best way I know how, doing my best to make this a better place to be not only for me and others that I come in contact with but for future generations. Not focusing on or worrying about what will happen after I take my last breath but living in the NOW...LOVING IN THE NOW. Why is it that so many focus on what happens in an alleged afterlife but never on what is happening in this present life, which in my opinion, is the ONLY life we have. Why do others WASTE so much precious time focusing on things that do not really matter NOW...things that in NO WAY enhance your living experience or anyones elses, for that matter, NOW?
To be completely honest with all of you, when I hear anyone speak about ET, it just makes me cringe because I know how completely destructive that type of teaching is...it does not in any way, shape, form or fashion show that God loves anyone. Unconditional love is just that...unconditional. How can you show love when you are teaching condemnation and fear? Teaching anyone that they will be burned eternally for not obeying, following and worshipping God sends the completely WRONG message that Jesus tried to convey and the only people you will attact with this type of message are those who are afraid...there is NO LOVE involved in this.
So what I think June is trying to convey is that there are many other things Jesus taught Christians should be doing and focusing on and that his main theme was LOVE...being true servants to those around us, helping one another, loving one another, living peacefully with one another, instead of all the bickering, arguing, judgment and condemnation that is present when contradictory biblical issues that CANNOT NOW nor EVER WILL BE resolved ensue. Let's live and let live, agree to disagree and start speaking about and sharing with one another what we can all do and are doing presently to LOVE and help our fellow man.
OK...I got a tad long winded and I'm off of my soapbox now...ya'll have a GREAT DAY!!!
See!!
I, too, left the faith I once loved so much, because I could not reconcile my thoughts about what the bible said, and what Jesus taught,,,VS. what the religous leaders of my day were telling me. It was not even on the same playing field.
Once a person sees how captive they are to their upbringing, societal teachings called education, and others who have been taught the same way,,,,the picture becomes quite clear. See the farm. Not only that, but WHO is the farmer?? Once this has been seen, and the farmer revealed, it is time to leave it.
I see Jesus leading me. He is my Shepherd. Out, past the farm, and to the green pastures, and beside the still waters. He set me free, and restored my soul. That IS His message.
You now have the teachings of Jesus embedded into your soul:
Quote:
There is one thing that I did take away from my years of Christianity and that is to LOVE ALL...treating others the way I want to be treated, helping my fellow man the best way I know how, doing my best to make this a better place to be not only for me and others that I come in contact with but for future generations. Not focusing on or worrying about what will happen after I take my last breath but living in the NOW...LOVING IN THE NOW. Why is it that so many focus on what happens in an alleged afterlife but never on what is happening in this present life, which in my opinion, is the ONLY life we have. Why do others WASTE so much precious time focusing on things that do not really matter NOW...things that in NO WAY enhance your living experience or anyones elses, for that matter, NOW?
And I agree with you. Your post has made an impact on me. No longer am I going to focus on destruction, of beliefs, and instead focus on loving others more completely and unselfishly.
Thank you Christygirl.
And thank you June for this topic and your loving comments made to me personally.
I have no doubt that your three dear friends are in fact very loving. I would agree there are many Christians who believe in ET who are very loving. Regarding the fate of ET for others, many simply hope and pray for the best and leave it in God's hands.
But to clarify I am talking about their love for you in the future after life. The fact of the matter is this: if they truly believe in ET, then they believe that you, June, will one day be burning in torment forever if you don't accept Christ right now.
When and if you should happen to end up in burning in eternal torment, what would their love for you do about it? I have seen three different answers from people who believe in ET:
1. they would be sad that you are burning forever, but at least they would be joyful they are with God
2. they wouldn't even remember you are burning forever
3. they would actually be gladthat you are burning forever because it would be "justice"
You can search the forum and find these three views expressed. This is where love breaks down in the ET view. This is where love fails in the ET view. Because their love will simply be unable to do any thing for you, or will forget about you, or *horror of horrors* they will derive pleasure from your endless torment.
June, think about what ET entails - think about yourself being burned in torment (either physically or mentally) for an hour, for a day, for a year, for a century, continuously, non-stop. Really think about it. It would be awful; it would be torture, but it is nothing compared to being burned for forever. If that was really your fate, wouldn't your three friends be doing everything they could to get you out of that situation? Yet their own beliefs show that they can ultimately do nothing for you once you are in endless torment. Love does not overcome all in the ET belief system.
ET really is the elephant in the room - no one wants to talk about it because it is so awful, yet if it were true, it should be the only thing we should be talking about - so that no one would go there. In that sense, why aren't your friends trying to drag you from what they may feel is your eternal doom?
Most people don't know anything about biblical UR, yet it is the only belief that makes sense and is consistent with scripture.
So...Legoman...do tell...understanding your same scenerio...what would YOUR! love for June if she were to be burning in torment?...what would YOUR love do for her?...huh?..what will your YOUR! love for June do for her be it you find out you were wrong about having a second chance after you die...? HUH?...answer me that!
(keep in mind I do not believe in torment..I believe in Death...done...dead...soul dead.)
and the BLUE highlighted part above...that is a lie! I just love how you accuse us of the very thing you do to us yourself!!
and the dark blue highlighted part above...that is a lie! again...here you are twisting our motive for the warnings we give to June and YOU! and all those who belive a lie!..because we do not want you to be separated from God forever! That's why!!!...and THAT! is REAL! LOVE!
Last edited by june 7th; 07-21-2010 at 08:37 AM..
Reason: Please refrain from using "red" in posts
~Actually, June is rather fascinated by "all things religion" so it doesn't bother her that the whole ET/UR debate is what it is here. Rather, it's struck June that it seems to be the premiere issue here, which, to June's way of thinking and the reading of the NT that she has done, would never have even entered her mind, much less have ever become a part of her fundamental understanding (and/or questioning) as regards Christianity.
June can read endlessly as regards the overall, never-ending debate. June doesn't have a stake or a "dog in the fight" as regards the overall debate. She's just curious as to what spurs it on, and why --of all the issues within Christianity-- it would appear to take 'center stage' here so much of the time....
Take gentle care.
Ah. I understand now. I misunderstood what you were saying. I do that too much. My bad.
So...Legoman...do tell...understanding your same scenerio...what would YOUR! love for June if she were to be burning in torment?...what would YOUR love do for her?...huh?..what will your YOUR! love for June do for her be it you find out you were wrong about having a second chance after you die...? HUH?...answer me that!
Verna, if I were to find June in unending torment, I would do everything possible to relieve her of that torment. Admittedly I might not be able to do much as I am a finite human. But I would beg God for the rest of eternity to release June from unending torment. Even if I were in heaven, it would not be "heaven" if I knew that June was suffering endlessly and IMHO needlessly.
Quote:
(keep in mind I do not believe in torment..I believe in Death...done...dead...soul dead.)
I am glad you do not believe in eternal torment.
Quote:
and the red highlighted part above...that is a lie! I just love how you accuse us of the very thing you do to us yourself!!
WHOA. Slow down Verna before you accuse me of lying. Did you understand what I was saying? I wasn't accusing you or even most people of doing the part highlighted in red. What I said is that ETers will fall into one of three beliefs: 1. they are sad but unable to help those tormented, 2. they forget those who are tormented, OR 3. they will be glad that some are tormented because it is justice. (also NOTE I was talking about what some believe happens in the after life in heaven, not right now).
I'm not saying you believe #3, but I know for a fact that some on this very forum believe #3. Just last week sciotamicks posted that the saints would be rejoicing with God over the endless torments of the lost. It is very disturbing that someone would think this.
Quote:
and the dark umber highlighted part above...that is a lie! again...here you are twisting our motive for the warnings we give to June and YOU! and all those who belive a lie!..because we do not want you to be separated from God forever! That's why!!!...and THAT! is REAL! LOVE!
Again Verna, before you accuse of lying, try to understand what I said. This is what I wrote:
If that was really your fate, wouldn't your three friends be doing everything they could to get you out of that situation? Yet their own beliefs show that they can ultimately do nothing for you once you are in endless torment. Love does not overcome all in the ET belief system.
While it is quite possible June's three friends are doing everything they can right now to help June see the light, according to their own beliefs (and your beliefs), there will come a day when it will no longer be possible to help June - June will be resigned to her fate whether that is eternal torment or annihilation. At that point no amount of LOVE will help June. Under this belief system LOVE no longer overcomes after a certain point.
That is what I was saying. Please keep the accusations of lying to yourself when you do not understand what was said.
Peace.
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--But June can't help but wonder what's the deal? Isn't there more to Christianity and more to being a Christian than this raging debate that somehow rises up, and takes over? (June gets the "somehow" part...Just a bit of light heartedness on June's part.) --But in all seriousness, there are some of us, namely "just June" who truly just wants to know.
I just love how you accuse us of the very thing you do to us yourself!! 
