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Old 07-22-2010, 06:44 PM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 129,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Nonsense. God's love is all-encompassing. Jesus has achieved what we could not . . . and ALL humans are beneficiaries of His achievement, period. But NONE of us are off the hook when it comes to accounting for our lives here. We are eternal . . . but what we build on the foundation Jesus has laid for us will be measured and we will reap what we sow. EVERY single moment of our conscious lives contains two "parts":

our eternal core soul and the current "in-process state of mind" of the moment being added to it.

These will ALL be separately evaluated . . . and those "moments" that have not been repented while alive will be judged. The "wood, stubble and hay" will be transformed in God's spiritual "Fire" through empathic regret and remorse . . . NOT ET.
The judgment has NOTHING to do with God's "Almightiness" or "holiness" or "Alpha and Omega-ness" or His EGO!! The judgment is about "refining" US to be compatible (perfectly harmonic) with God and Jesus. UR does NOT believe there is a free pass." This is another of the many lies spread about UR.

God bless you in your search for the truth Jeremiah, God will lead you to His message, in time, as He will do with all of us, on His time, not ours.
Hello MysticPhD,

It would be very hard for me to respond to you after you have designated my thoughts and belief system that took nearly my entire life to come to by diligent study and personal walk with Jesus Christ, as nonsense. I apologize in advance, but it is statements such as this one that makes this discussion very hard to continue in. I would further like to talk with you, but at this point, it would be without edification of the body of Christ, if we were to start off as you have. How are those seeking the faith going to deal with this kind of exchange? They won't. They will simply pass the promise on. Your message in this post, as I understand, is without Biblical merit, and would like to know how you, and many universalists, tie these holy concepts to venues other than what they are representing. It appears to me, that you are merely imposing, as I mentioned in the previous post, Hellenistic culture and thought into a "Hebrew" based theology. You must remember, God did not choose the gentiles, He chose the Jews first, and the gentiles are inheritors of the blessings, centered in jewish thought, hyperbole, and symbolism. God's spiritual, purifying fire, is only meant for believers, as they are sanctified by Christ's perfect offering. God's cleansing of His firstborn, Israel, was accomplished as a historical event.
God bless you.
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:44 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,199,458 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Hello AlabamaStorm,

Thank you for reminding me of the last thread you and I conversed in. I apologize and I will get to replying back to you as soon as I can. Yes, that is the question that separates universalism from everyone else, Will everyone, in the end, be born of the Spirit, come to faith in Christ, and enter the Kingdom? The question i ask you, since you consider yourself one, why is it that UR focuses on this rebirth apart from and outside the bounds of biological life? isn't that the premise of Christ's salvation effort? To release and redeem us from "the flesh?" The flesh, where the strength of sin, is the law? Where death is bound to?
Where the victory lay? These questions are the root of the debate in my opinion, and I believe Eternal Torment advocates are begging the world to be reborn in the flesh, of the spirit, instead of expanding their focus beyond the realm of what we can ensure in the flesh through our profession of faith in Christ, so that when someone does die, there is no chance for "rebirth." As far as I understand the gospels and epistles, most notably Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians and Corinthians, he goes into great detail about this event, that we call "being reborn." It is imperative, at least as I see from my understanding, that this rebirth can only occur while we are in the flesh. Thus, sown the body and raise the body in Christ. We cannot be "put to death" in Christ, when we are already in the grave. Do you see? I understand the reformed universalist position, and like I mentioned to another, I believe it was this thread, that universalism is simply an erred eschatology in my understanding. It is reformed, it is even considered Protestant by many. I disagree though. It has demonstrated, as most reformed and orthodox positions have done, is place literal, western interpretation to Hebrew/Aramaic hyperbole and symbolic language to a text where it is unwarranted, and negligibly mishandled it. However, with all assumptions aside about different denominations, it is clear that Calvin, although questionable in some areas, was undoubtedly correct in one major rule: Scripture is the final word, not interpretation, paraphrasing mine of course. That is why we must be extremely careful when we impose our western minds into a very Jewish piece of work. Does this hinder us gentiles from truly understanding? No, I don't believe it does. Paul was very pleased that the gentiles received the concepts of the "spiritual" body and nature's from their own culture, something that the Jews, lost sight of corporately and as an theocracy and empire. Hellenists were very close to their religion and very up close and personal with their gods. It was easy for gentiles to have a "personal" relationship with Christ. The Jews however, found that very difficult. Just remember Peter, and having to eat with a gentile! Goodness gracious! Not a gentile! Jews would bypass and take exorbitant detours to avoid being close to a"unclean" gentile cities. It was their way, precisely why Christ, removed the kingdom from their rule and regulatory culture. They behaved badly. But we must not impose our Hellenistic culture in a deep rooted culturally and socially hebraic faith, because I believe it to be a bad fit, that will lead to many errors. Clement of Alexandria was guilty of it, Origen was as well, and many others since then have done this. And that is just the universalist court. We could be here all day talking about the Catholics and Reformed sects. I am almost positive that some of my interpretations are laden with a western mind. I don't believe the Bible reveals to us an age where this earth is destroyed and everything is physically made new. At least not this planet and solar system. I believe everything that involves this "age of reconciliation" is just how it is now, and is where it always focused, in the spirit. Thanks for you time and conversation, I will try to get back to the other threads soon as I can. God bless you.

You wrote ...
Quote:
Where the victory lay? These questions are the root of the debate in my opinion, and I believe Eternal Torment advocates are begging the world to be reborn in the flesh, of the spirit, instead of expanding their focus beyond the realm of what we can ensure in the flesh through our profession of faith in Christ, so that when someone does die, there is no chance for "rebirth." As far as I understand the gospels and epistles, most notably Paul's epistles to the Thessalonians and Corinthians, he goes into great detail about this event, that we call "being reborn." It is imperative, at least as I see from my understanding, that this rebirth can only occur while we are in the flesh.
I agree with your assessment that these questions lay at the root of the debate ... You say that one must be reborn of the spirit while in the flesh, and i would not disagree with that idea ... That in my opinion is the point of the resurrection of the wicked dead, so that they might undergo Judgment and be saved as though by fire. Corinthians teaches that Christ is the foundation on which all salvation is laid, and that upon that foundation we all build our lives in this world. The building blocks of our lives are as precious stones, precious metals, etc., or they are like hay and stubble ... I believe that the work of the spirit in the lives of believers is the fruit of the spirit which we bear in our lives, while the works of those that are wicked and or do not believe are for the most part hay and stubble of the carnal nature.

What I think Calvin was right about was that our faith and our repentance are the gifts given by God, that they do not derive from our own carnal natures, but from the spirit of God. One cannot Choose to be born again(of the spirit) anymore than one can choose to be born the fist time(of the flesh). Paul is clear that it is God who "works within us to will and to do his good pleasure", and that the carnal man in whom the spirit of God is not yet working can not even comprehend the things of the spirit, much less choose to receive them of his own volition.

You said that those who use ET for proselytizing are begging the world to be renewed, but Christ said if anyone rejects the gospel to leave them and knock the dust of your sandals as you go your own way ... He did not say beg them and bash them over the head with threats in order to convince them to agree or subject themselves to "the faith". Only the spirit of God can convict the heart of the carnal man and renew their minds so that they will comprehend and receive the things of the spirit. Again it is written, "do you not know that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance" ... You cant convince someone to repent, only the goodness of God through the medium of his spirit can accomplish that. That is what Paul meant when he said, "everyone in their own order", and that is what he meant when he wrote that "these have now not believed, that they(unbelievers) may receive mercy by your(believers) mercy" in Romans 11 ...

I believe that the dispensation of the believer is to act as an emissary to the unbelieving world of the inevitability of salvation in Christ and the eventual condemnation of the carnal nature. I believe it is our duty as the body of Christ to act as intercessors by faith for those who do not have it, and we exercise this duty through providing the spiritual fruit necessary to make example of the "kingdom of heaven" which we represent. That is to say we help initiate the kingdom on earth through our kindness and mercy and patience and meekness and LOVE ... I don't believe we are here to preach condemnation and fear in order to convert the world, that in my understanding is the way of the enemy, and Christians inadvertently are doing the bidding of the enemy when they resort to such methods. In as much as they push away instead of draw others near, and those they do draw near by such methods are usually those who desire to be part of an elite group, greedy for being a part of the in crowd, and those who are easily controlled by fear because of cowardice and self loathing.



I have more to say on this, but i will stop here and allow for others to answer ...



God bless ...
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Old 07-22-2010, 07:56 PM
 
309 posts, read 176,122 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You wrote ...
I agree with your assessment that these questions lay at the root of the debate ... You say that one must be reborn of the spirit while in the flesh, and i would not disagree with that idea ... That in my opinion is the point of the resurrection of the wicked dead, so that they might undergo Judgment and be saved as though by fire. Corinthians teaches that Christ is the foundation on which all salvation is laid, and that upon that foundation we all build our lives in this world. The building blocks of our lives are as precious stones, precious metals, etc., or they are like hay and stubble ... I believe that the work of the spirit in the lives of believers is the fruit of the spirit which we bear in our lives, while the works of those that are wicked and or do not believe are for the most part hay and stubble of the carnal nature.

What I think Calvin was right about was that our faith and our repentance are the gifts given by God, that they do not derive from our own carnal natures, but from the spirit of God. One cannot Choose to be born again(of the spirit) anymore than one can choose to be born the fist time(of the flesh). Paul is clear that it is God who "works within us to will and to do his good pleasure", and that the carnal man in whom the spirit of God is not yet working can not even comprehend the things of the spirit, much less choose to receive them of his own volition.

You said that those who use ET for proselytizing are begging the world to be renewed, but Christ said if anyone rejects the gospel to leave them and knock the dust of your sandals as you go your own way ... He did not say beg them and bash them over the head with threats in order to convince them to agree or subject themselves to "the faith". Only the spirit of God can convict the heart of the carnal man and renew their minds so that they will comprehend and receive the things of the spirit. Again it is written, "do you not know that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance" ... You cant convince someone to repent, only the goodness of God through the medium of his spirit can accomplish that. That is what Paul meant when he said, "everyone in their own order", and that is what he meant when he wrote that "these have now not believed, that they(unbelievers) may receive mercy by your(believers) mercy" in Romans 11 ...

I believe that the dispensation of the believer is to act as an emissary to the unbelieving world of the inevitability of salvation in Christ and the eventual condemnation of the carnal nature. I believe it is our duty as the body of Christ to act as intercessors by faith for those who do not have it, and we exercise this duty through providing the spiritual fruit necessary to make example of the "kingdom of heaven" which we represent. That is to say we help initiate the kingdom on earth through our kindness and mercy and patience and meekness and LOVE ... I don't believe we are here to preach condemnation and fear in order to convert the world, that in my understanding is the way of the enemy, and Christians inadvertently are doing the bidding of the enemy when they resort to such methods. In as much as they push away instead of draw others near, and those they do draw near by such methods are usually those who desire to be part of an elite group, greedy for being a part of the in crowd, and those who are easily controlled by fear because of cowardice and self loathing.



I have more to say on this, but i will stop here and allow for others to answer ...



God bless ...
Very simply put Iron. Good post.
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:01 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,918,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
You say that one must be reborn of the spirit while in the flesh, and i would not disagree with that idea ... That in my opinion is the point of the resurrection of the wicked dead, so that they might undergo Judgment and be saved as though by fire.
And most believers will not be hurt of the second death. We went through that while here, right? The first death is not eternal, and neither is the second death. All forms of death will be destroyed and there will no longer be evil anywhere in this Universe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
He did not say beg them and bash them over the head with threats in order to convince them to agree or subject themselves to "the faith". Only the spirit of God can convict the heart of the carnal man and renew their minds so that they will comprehend and receive the things of the spirit. Again it is written, "do you not know that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance" ...

I don't believe we are here to preach condemnation and fear in order to convert the world, that in my understanding is the way of the enemy, and Christians inadvertently are doing the bidding of the enemy when they resort to such methods.
Amen!

God is not holding people's sins against them. That is supposed to be our message.

2 Corinthians 5:18,19.

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:

that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
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Old 07-22-2010, 08:09 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 989,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
That verse reminds me of this:

1 Corinthians 13:

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails.
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Old 07-22-2010, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 1,918,944 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
It is imperative, at least as I see from my understanding, that this rebirth can only occur while we are in the flesh. Thus, sown the body and raise the body in Christ. We cannot be "put to death" in Christ, when we are already in the grave. Do you see?
I don't remember if you have tried to answer this before. I'm sure you understand my next paragraph already. It's the questions that come after it that I am interested in having you answer.

The flesh is not just our flesh and bones. It is our minds. Out of the heart (soul,mind) cometh war, envy, etc. It really isn't our physical flesh that is our enemy, necessarily. The adversary was battling Christ in the spiritual realm. Being released from physical bodies doesn't fix anybody.

If only in the flesh can we be salvaged, why would God preach to the disobedient spirits from Noah's time and how can he reconcile spiritual things in the heavens?
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Old 07-22-2010, 11:56 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,309,063 times
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Quote:
Hello AlabamaStorm,
Hello JerimiahJohnson

Quote:
The question i ask you, since you consider yourself one, why is it that UR focuses on this rebirth apart from and outside the bounds of biological life?
I don't think UR places it's focus in the after life. What I think most UR's would say is that the work of the Spirit does not necessarily have to end for anyone this side of death. Where does it say that the Spirit cannot regenerate the lost after death? Although the scriptures may appear to be silent, or at least not deal directly head on with the subject, there are scriptures that would lead one to believe that the Spirit can and does regenerate after death. Consider the following scriptures that would lead us in that direction:

Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

The Spirit is not limited as to where, or when, he regenerates the dead to spiritual life. He regenerates according to His will, not ours, and according to where and when He chooses, not where or when we choose. Right?

Joh 5:25 `Verily, verily, I say to you--There cometh an hour, and it now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and those having heard shall live;

Joh 5:28 `Wonder not at this, because there doth come an hour in which all those in the tombs shall hear his voice,

Here, Jesus states that those in the tombs shall hear His voice. And those having heard shall live. Are you saying that the Spirit cannot regenerate those that hear the voice of the Son of God? If not, how are these dead brought to life?

1Pe 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer--righteous for unrighteous--that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,

1Pe 4:6 for for this also to dead men was good news proclaimed, that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit.

This would seem to indicate that the proclamation of the Gospel was given by Christ to those who had already died. And Jesus did so that "that they may be judged, indeed, according to men in the flesh, and may live according to God in the spirit."

Those scriptures would seem to indicate that the Spirit can and does regenerate after death, right?

Quote:
isn't that the premise of Christ's salvation effort? To release and redeem us from "the flesh?" The flesh, where the strength of sin, is the law? Where death is bound to? Where the victory lay?
Actually IMO, no. The purpose of Christ's salvation effort was to glorify His Father, to do His will and finish His work. Our salvation is the by product of Jesus' faithfulness in keeping His Father's will. It's the faith of Jesus that Paul spoke of in Romans that justifies us before God.

Joh 4:34 Jesus saith to them, `My food is, that I may do the will of Him who sent me, and may finish His work;

Joh 6:38 because I have come down out of the heaven, not that I may do my will, but the will of Him who sent me.

And the by product of Jesus' faithfulness is our salvation. It's application is twofold, all those that are given to Christ as well as all believers:

Joh 6:39 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;
Joh 6:40 and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.'

And what has been given to Christ from His Father:

Joh 3:35 the Father doth love the Son, and all things hath given into his hand;

All things! Is there any reason to doubt that the Spirit will not regenerate all to life, considering that the Father has put all things into Jesus' hands?

Your post was long and had too much to respond to. So, before going further, I would like to get your feedback on this portion.

As always, thanks for taking time out to discuss.
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Old 07-23-2010, 06:06 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,447 posts, read 11,765,215 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
... You say that one must be reborn of the spirit while in the flesh, and i would not disagree with that idea ... That in my opinion is the point of the resurrection of the wicked dead, so that they might undergo Judgment and be saved as though by fire. Corinthians teaches that Christ is the foundation on which all salvation is laid, and that upon that foundation we all build our lives in this world. The building blocks of our lives are as precious stones, precious metals, etc., or they are like hay and stubble ... I believe that the work of the spirit in the lives of believers is the fruit of the spirit which we bear in our lives, while the works of those that are wicked and or do not believe are for the most part hay and stubble of the carnal nature.
I believe you are referring to 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (the test by fire). It is not about wicked dead who are tested in the fire, it is the works of the believeres. It is about rewarding the believers. The unbelievers will not undergo this test. See below where is talks about people who build upon the foundation of Christ. The message is simple: you are saved through faith alone, but there are additional rewards for those who have faith and works. Unbelievers however do not build on the foundation of Christ, so this passage is not about them. And if you read the whole chapter you will learn that he is talking to believers only. It is imporant to read the Bible in context.

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. 6I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God made it grow. 7So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8The man who plants and the man who waters have one purpose, and each will be rewarded according to his own labor. 9For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.

10By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. 11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
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Old 07-23-2010, 06:34 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,308,554 times
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Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
After all of the what would ET people do if threads this:

Scenario:

So what if you got to heaven (those of you who trusted in Jesus) and discovered that the historical/Orthodox view was correct? You realized that where Bible said those who don't trust in Jesus will be in hell forever, doing what people do in hell. The Bible was/is clear on such matters.

Then you came to realize that millions upon millions of people were lulled into a false sense of security, thinking they would not face God's eternal punishment due to the teachings of UR. Those same millions would have made the choice for Christ, but they thought; hey I'm OK regardless. No sense of urgency to say yes to Christ.

How would you feel?

1. You would be sad that they are suffering forever, but at least you would be joyful you are with God
2. You wouldn't even remember they are suffering forever
3. You would be really sad that you spread a false doctrine that caused people to think they would be OK.
4. Other.........

If orthodox Christianity is true, then It would be the ones going to hell who are at fault for making that choice and I would not be to blame in the first place.
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Old 07-23-2010, 06:41 AM
 
22,755 posts, read 10,487,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Hello MysticPhD,

It would be very hard for me to respond to you after you have designated my thoughts and belief system that took nearly my entire life to come to by diligent study and personal walk with Jesus Christ, as nonsense. I apologize in advance, but it is statements such as this one that makes this discussion very hard to continue in. I would further like to talk with you, but at this point, it would be without edification of the body of Christ, if we were to start off as you have. How are those seeking the faith going to deal with this kind of exchange? They won't. They will simply pass the promise on. Your message in this post, as I understand, is without Biblical merit, and would like to know how you, and many universalists, tie these holy concepts to venues other than what they are representing. It appears to me, that you are merely imposing, as I mentioned in the previous post, Hellenistic culture and thought into a "Hebrew" based theology. You must remember, God did not choose the gentiles, He chose the Jews first, and the gentiles are inheritors of the blessings, centered in jewish thought, hyperbole, and symbolism. God's spiritual, purifying fire, is only meant for believers, as they are sanctified by Christ's perfect offering. God's cleansing of His firstborn, Israel, was accomplished as a historical event.
God bless you.
Sorry . . . but the God of ALL does not play favorites, period. "Specialness" is a desire of our human weaknesses.
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