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Old 07-24-2010, 02:25 AM
 
Location: US
9,894 posts, read 3,601,906 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
THAT'S what infuriates me most; that abused/malnourished/exhausted kids and adults all over the globe are told that God LOVES them but if they don't believe, follow, and run the race to the VERY END even though they are exhausted, confused, and/or mentally tormented, God will torch or ignore them for eternity.



Perserverence of the Saints...
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Old 07-24-2010, 02:36 AM
 
Location: US
9,894 posts, read 3,601,906 times
Reputation: 468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr5150 View Post
So let me pose a question. If God didn't do things according to how you think He should, you would reject God?

Part of being right with God is submitting to His will and plan. Who are you or I to say to God: You are wrong?

Food for thought.

Clay-potter sort of thing.
Rom 9:1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

Rom 9:11 - Here Paul states that he is telling the Truth. What is in his conscience is put there by the Holy Spirit so therefore cannot be a lie.

Rom 9:2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

Rom 9:2 - Why is he grieved so? What has the Holy Spirit put this on his heart?

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

Rom 9:3 - Notice this is a conditional statement...He is saying that if it were possible for him to be accursed from Christ in order that his kin, the Israelites, would be saved, he would wish it (no greater love has one for his fellow man but to lay down his life for a friend)...But, since he made a conditional statement, this implies that he knows that it is immpossible for this to occur.

Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Rom 9:4 - Here he is affirming the Covenant made with the Israelites. Also, that it is because of the Israelites that the Gentiles are adopted into the family...The adoption does not refer to the Israelites but rather to the Gentiles...

Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 9:5 - Here Paul is talking about why Christ came and this parellels the verse in Mat 15:24 -
'But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:6 - In other words not everyone living in Israel and having citizenship therein are of the flesh (seed) of Israel...so, do not be mistaken in thinking the Word of God (Christ) did not have an effect on Israel...It did...

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Rom 9:7 - So, Christ was sent only to the House (seed) of Israel.

(Gen 21:12 And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.)
Note: This also destroys the UR notion of everyone being the Children of God. Only those in Isaac or decended from Isaac.

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Rom 9:8 - This re-enforces the statement above...Not the whole world are the children of God but the Children of the promise and what was that promise?...that thy seed will be called from Isaac...Only the decendants of Abraham through Isaac are counted as children of God and the promise.

Rom 9:9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son.

Rom 9:9 - Here is the Promise made to Abraham. Ishmael was not of the Promise, but, it was Isaac that was heir to that promise made by God to Abraham.

Rom 9:10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

Rom 9:10 - Here Isaac felt for his barren wife andprayed to God and she conceived and had Esau and Jacob (who would later, after wrestling with God, be called Israel - the House that Christ was sent only to).

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth-

Rom 9:11 - Here Paul is implying that God does as He wishes because the children were not born yet and had not the chance to do anything good or bad (and God did not look down the corridor of time and see who would be good or bad, this is obvious by the later statement) God elected/chose Jacob over Esau so it was not dependant on works but on Gods choice in election according to His purpose. God calls whom He wishes.

Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Rom 9:13 - again, they were not born yet, did not get the chance to do good or bad, but, yet God hated one but loved the other not according to works, but, according to God's elective Sovreignty.

Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

Rom 9:14 - Here Paul is asking if we should charge God with unrighteousness because He chose one and not the other, He violated the 'First Born Inherits Everthing' policy...and chose Jacob to be the heir and progenetor of the house of Israel even though Esau was first born. Man, would look at this as unfair and biased...But, it was not unfair as you will see in the next verse and it was not biased for it states that it was not according to works but according to God's Elective Sovreignty.

Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Rom 9:15 - Here God says to Moses that He will have mercy and compassion on whom He pleases and no one can tell Him who He must have mercy on.

Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Rom 9:16 - Why does Paul say this?...He says that man's will has nothing to do with it (remember man in the natural state). He also says running toward God has nothing to do with it (false christians?)
These are what if scenarios because of man's natural state, he is unable to will or to run to God...so, it is because of the Sovreign Election of God that a man may have Faith...it is not of his own will but because of God's mercy that he is called and regenerated by the Holy Sprit.

Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Rom 9:17 - Here Paul expands on the above verse to clarify what he is stating...God said to Pharaoh that He did not create him for any other purpose but to harden his heart against Him and so that God could save His people against all odds and that His name should be declared throughout the earth...God caused Pharaoh to not believe and to rebel against Him...some people might say that that is unfair and that it was Pharaoh that hardened his heart first and God hardened it the rest of the way...Read the Exodus story for the Truth.

Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Rom 9:18 - Here Paul presents the hard Truth about God...He has mercy on whom He wants and He will harden whom He wants.

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:19 - Because of what Paul presents in verse 18, a person will say 'if God hardened my heart (like He did Pharaoh's) then how is it fair to hold that against me, for it is Him that has done it to me (no one resists the will of God is obviously well known among the early Christians)?' (a non-believer would not ask this, for Truth is foolishness to him, but, Paul is presenting an arguement for God's Sovreign Election).

Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Rom 9:20 - Here Paul replies to this accusing implication that God is unjust...He says who are you to question or accuse God of unfairness...If God formed you for a certain purpose, that is the purpose you will serve for His own Glory and according to His Election...You have no right to ask God why He made you for this purpose, according to Paul.

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Rom 9:21. 22. 23. 24 - Here Paul presents an example using God as the potter and the vessels as ones Elected and ones passed over...One vessel for honor and one for dishonor...one for Flowers and one for garbage...one for Salvation and one for Condemnation...and Paul goes further to explain that this is so that God could show to the objects of His mercy how great His Salvation bestowed upon them is...Like the difference between some one giving you a million dollars and someone giving you one dollar...which one are you going to realize did the most for you?...without that comparison, you would not realize the difference...and these vessels of mercy were prepared beforehand and Paul says 'Even Us', for he is speaking to the Gentiles Believers of Rome (as reference see Rom Chap. 1) so, if Paul says that he 'is all things to all people that he may save some', he is including himself as a Gentile when he says 'us' as referenced in chap 1 of Romans and we know that he is a Jew especially stated in the beginning of this chapter...So, Paul is not here speaking of the whole world...Glory Be to God...Amen

Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Rom 9:25, 26 - These verses are refering to the gentiles for as we know that the covenant was made with the Jews and that the Jews are God's people. So, those that are not God's people, must be the Gentiles.

Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

Rom 9:27, 28, 29, 30, 31 - What happened to Soddom and Gomorrha?..They were completely destroyed and if God had not left a remnant of the Faithfull, the House of Israel would completely disappear, this is an active work of God...And he goes on to ask why the Gentiles, who did not follow after righteousness, have attained righteousness unto Faith and the Jews that did have not obtained it.

Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom 9:32 - Here Paul gives the answer, they sought it by works and not by Faith...Paul says in another part of Romans that 'by the law, no flesh shall be saved.'

Rom 9:33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom 9:33 - It is Faith in this 'Stumblingstone' (Christ) that Salvation is met...the Jews found it to be offensive that they had to have Faith in this Man rather than the Law of Moses...
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Old 07-24-2010, 02:55 AM
 
Location: RI
18,949 posts, read 8,798,458 times
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The good news in a nutshell is for

1, Those who found the narrow gate
2, Those who opened the door of their heart to let Jesus in
3, Those who found Jesus
4, Those who sought Jesus
5, Those who chose Jesus
6, Those who believe in the bible
7, Those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation
8, Those who believe God hates the wicked(sinners)
9, Those who believe in preterism or the last days ministries
10,Those who believe in free will.

It doesn't matter that none of the above is not good news or anything to do with Salvation according to the scriptures.

If you believe any of the 10 listed as essential to being saved you are deceiving yourself.

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2
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Old 07-24-2010, 03:20 AM
 
Location: US
9,894 posts, read 3,601,906 times
Reputation: 468
A look at the word "aionion"


by Matt Slick
Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.
To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is "aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.
The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.
With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.
This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)
The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.
How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?

The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.
  1. John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
  2. John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
  3. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
  4. Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
  5. Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
  6. Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
  7. Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
  8. 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
  9. 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
  10. 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.
  1. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
  2. Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
  3. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
  4. Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
  5. Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
  6. Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
  7. 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
  8. Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used. - A look at the word "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
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Old 07-24-2010, 11:40 AM
 
Location: in the woods
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Hello Richard1965,

A great article by Matt Slick from CARM
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Old 07-24-2010, 11:53 AM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 128,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I want to ask a question. I am still reading your reply, but i want to ask this before it slips my mind. Do you believe that faith is the natural reaction to grace? That is to say, do you believe faith derives from the carnal nature? Can one have faith before they are born again or is it a fruit of the spirit?


Lets look at the fruits of the spirit ...

Galatians 5:22-23
And the fruit of the Spirit is: Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law


So if faith is a fruit of the spirit, how can one have faith if they are spiritually dead? How can one have faith if one is not first born again of the spirit?

Hello Ironamw1776,

Your question is very valid, and deserves a proper answer. I thought I did give it to you, but I will try to be more clearer. I apologize. You poised that faith is a fruit of the spirit, which the Bible is very correct in saying such, as I do not disagree with this at all. It is in complete harmony with what I have said I believe it is. When the Holy Spirit convicts a man to believe, that man does not receive faith from God, but it is a result of that conviction that came from God, therefore it is a fruit, as resulting growth, from the spirit. I hope that answered your question. What I believe people do, is they try to separate these emotions and reactions from God and man, when they are all related in one way or another, but do have sources. Faith is not something that is given, is it an emotional/spiritual/natural response to something else that is either given, seen, or experienced.
God bless you.
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Old 07-24-2010, 11:54 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
34,437 posts, read 11,719,542 times
Reputation: 4272
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard1965 View Post
A look at the word "aionion"


by Matt Slick
Universalism is the teaching that God will ultimately bring all people, in all times, and all places to a state of reconciliation with Him. In other words, everyone who ever lived will be saved. Consequently, universalism cannot allow the possibility of an eternal hell as a realistic biblical teaching.
To get around the problem of the English Bibles translating Greek words into "eternal," "forever," and forevermore" when describing fire (Matt. 18:8) or torment (Rev. 20:10), the universalists go to the Greek. The Greek word that is translated into eternal is "aionion." It comes from the Greek root "aion" meaning "age." This fact combined with the various uses of Greek words derived from the root "aion," are what the universalists use to attempt to show that "aionion" does not always mean "eternal" but can refer to a finite period of time.
The truth is, they are right. It can be translated into a temporal sense as it is in Rom. 16:25: "Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages (aionios1) past." But the reason it is translated that way is because of context, and that is extremely important. Context determines meaning, as you will see later.
With the claim that "aionion" can be translated into something temporal and that its root means "age," the universalist then says that any reference to "eternal fire," "eternal torment," or "eternal punishment" is not really eternal. Instead of "eternal torment," it is "aionion torment." Instead of "eternal punishment," it is "aionion punishment." That way, to the universalist, there is no eternal hell, no eternal punishment, and no eternal damnation. Everyone will be saved.
This approach by the Universalists can be confusing to someone who doesn't understand Greek, and that is part of the reason that Universalism has followers. It is true that the root "aion" means age. But just because a root means age does not mean that every word derived from that root means a limited duration of time. For example, consider this verse that is speaking about God:
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen, (1 Tim. 6:16)
The context is obviously dealing with God's eternal nature. The word in Greek for "immortality" is "athanatos." The Greek word for death is "thanatos." The "a" in front of the word is the negator -- without, non, etc. It means that God is deathless; hence, immortal. This is an eternal quality of God. Likewise, the verse states that God has eternal dominion. The word for "eternal" is "aionios" which is derived from the Greek root "aion" which means age. But, God is not immortal for only an "age," nor is His dominion temporal. The word "eternal" is absolutely the best way to translate the Greek "aionion" because God is immortal and eternal. Therefore, it would be wrong to translate the verse by stating that God has "aionion" dominion. Rather, He has eternal dominion.
How is "aionion" used in the New Testament?




The following two sections are verses that contain the word "aionion" which is translated as "eternal." Notice how using the word "eternal" in the first group is no problem. But, it is the second group with which the Universalists object. Nevertheless, the same word is used in both. See for yourself.
  1. John 6:47, "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal (aionion) life.
  2. John 20:28, "and I give eternal (aionion) life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."
  3. Acts 13:48, "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal (aionion) life believed."
  4. Romans 2:7, " to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal (aionion) life."
  5. Romans 5:21, "that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal (aionion) life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
  6. Rom. 16:26, " but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal (aionion) God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith."
  7. Gal. 6:8, "For the one who sows to his own flesh shall from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit shall from the Spirit reap eternal (aionion) life."
  8. 1 Tim. 6:16, "who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal (aionion) dominion! Amen."
  9. 1 John 1:2, "and the life was manifested, and we have seen and bear witness and proclaim to you the eternal (aionion) life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us"
  10. 1 John 5:11, "And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal (aionion) life, and this life is in His Son."
The following set of scriptures divulge the nature of eternal damnation.
  1. Matt. 18:8, "And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal (aionion) fire.
  2. Matt. 25:41, "Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal (aionion) fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
  3. Matt. 25:46, "And these will go away into eternal (aionion) punishment, but the righteous into eternal (aionion) life."
  4. Mark 3:29, "but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal (aionion) sin."
  5. Mark 10:30, "but that he shall receive a hundred times as much now in the present age, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and farms, along with persecutions; and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life.
  6. Luke 18:30, "who shall not receive many times as much at this time and in the age to come, eternal (aionion) life."
  7. 2 Thess. 1:9, "And these will pay the penalty of eternal (aionion) destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,"
  8. Jude 7, "Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal (aionion) fire."
It should be quite obvious that there is an eternal punishment and that universalism is nothing more than a hopeful wish. The Universalists are not justified in picking and choosing the meaning of a word based upon their interpretations of "aion" that suits them and depending on which verse is used. - A look at the word "aionion" | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
Good article. Every time I ask universalists how long eternal life is, they have no answer, because they agree it is indeed eternal, yet they insist that the same word, when used in eternal torment, means something less.

The universalist cherry picked bible verses fail the 'compare scripture to scripture' test every time, and they end up running around looking to explain the contradictions somehow, but the more they speak the more they expose the weaknesses in their arguments. And of course the wanton disregard of the rest of the scriptures is the mark of a false teaching.
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Old 07-24-2010, 12:13 PM
 
22,730 posts, read 10,451,503 times
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IT would behoove the ET'rs and others to reflect on this little tidbit for a spell . . . since they routinely ignore what God has "written in our hearts" to override it with what has been "written in ink" using the interpreted "precepts and doctrines of men." We have expressly been told that we have no need of teachers because Jesus abides with us and His Holy Spirit is the Spirit we are of. It is THAT Spirit and its "fruits" as revealed by Jesus that we follow. Our ears need intellect to interpret words in order to be be "tickled" . . . but our hearts do NOT! A word to the wise about who is following the "tickled ears" warning.
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Old 07-24-2010, 12:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by JerimiahJohnson View Post
Hello Ironamw1776,

Your question is very valid, and deserves a proper answer. I thought I did give it to you, but I will try to be more clearer. I apologize. You poised that faith is a fruit of the spirit, which the Bible is very correct in saying such, as I do not disagree with this at all. It is in complete harmony with what I have said I believe it is. When the Holy Spirit convicts a man to believe, that man does not receive faith from God, but it is a result of that conviction that came from God, therefore it is a fruit, as resulting growth, from the spirit. I hope that answered your question. What I believe people do, is they try to separate these emotions and reactions from God and man, when they are all related in one way or another, but do have sources. Faith is not something that is given, is it an emotional/spiritual/natural response to something else that is either given, seen, or experienced.
God bless you.
I can see we are at an impasse ... We must agree to disagree about faith being a gift.

Rom 12:3
For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,


Again, God has all the faith, and like a dealer in a game of Cards, he divides the deck and deals out to each who has faith a measure of faith. If God does not deal you a measure of Faith, then you cannot get faith from any other source.

I want to clarify a point. When you say that you agree that faith is a fruit of the spirit, does that mean that you agree that you must be born again of the spirit before you can have faith?



Peace ...
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Old 07-24-2010, 12:33 PM
 
Location: in the woods
180 posts, read 128,740 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I can see we are at an impasse ... We must agree to disagree about faith being a gift.

Rom 12:3
For I say, through the grace that was given to me, to every one who is among you, not to think above what it behoveth to think; but to think so as to think wisely, as to each God did deal a measure of faith,


Again, God has all the faith, and like a dealer in a game of Cards, he divides the deck and deals out to each who has faith a measure of faith. If God does not deal you a measure of Faith, then you cannot get faith from any other source.

I want to clarify a point. When you say that you agree that faith is a fruit of the spirit, does that mean that you agree that you must be born again of the spirit before you can have faith?



Peace ...
Hello Ironmaw1776,

Thank you again for your questions. I believe I already clarified my position of Romans 12, and I believe it is not proposing what you are proposing, but that is besides the point, as you are asking me whether faith, comes after rebirth. In Romans 10:9-11, the Apostle Paul teaches, “Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe ( adhere to, trust in and rely on the truth ) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart a person believes ( adheres to, trusts in and relies on Christ ) and so is justified ( declared righteous, acceptable to God ) and with the mouth he confesses ( declares openly and speaks out freely his faith ) and confirms ( his ) salvation”. We must not place these things inside a fitted box to identify them individually, but rather they are all instances, whether coming from God, or from man, that completes the saving grace and work. Faith is a reaction of what man has experienced, it comes during re-birth, or regeneration, and is directly related to it. It is a result of being convicted. The Holy Spirit acts, man responds with faith, he confess, then he is saved. First God acts, man responds, man responds, God gives. I hope I have answered you adequately.

God bless you.

Last edited by JerimiahJohnson; 07-24-2010 at 12:40 PM.. Reason: hit send and I wasnt finished
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