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Old 07-25-2010, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,242,597 times
Reputation: 837

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Verna, I agree with you that "missing the mark" is an explanation that trivializes sin. Sinning involves much more than simply not constantly measuring up to a standard of perfection and should be taken very seriously.
...Amen.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
I disagree with you, though, that sinners are not children of God. A parent-child relationship is not disolved by disobedience. I believe that sinners are still His children, but that their sins are a source of anguish for Him as any child's sins are to any loving parent. He wants nothing more than for them to repent, but does not simply disown them.
Dear Katzpur, what seems to be missing in most people's understanding is the subject of being born-again, and when one is truly born-again...you will know them by their fruits.
We have been taught (wrongly) by Modern Day Christianity for so long now...so much that is crucial for Christians to know and understand has been lost for all the prosperity and all other self-interest teachings of preachers today, and for the past 2000 years. This teaching about when one is born-again has been pushed under the rug..and it is crucial to our salvation to know what it means to be born-again IN Christ...and it does NOT! occur when we first receive Jesus into our hearts, receiving Jesus with a pure heart is just the beginning of our process of working out our salvation with fear and trembling...becoming born-again takes time...and until one has reached that point in their process, they are not born-again...they have not had a "character change"...their spirits have not been regenerated...made anew....they cannot walk in the spirit of Christ...therefore they still sin...and are not considered a child of God...yet...and maybe never will be, if they do not grow and mature into a child of God by their learning and maturing into knowing what sin is and what it isn't...and choosing not to willfully sin any longer....repenting once and for all time...leaving the old nature behind...and yea! all things become new!

1 John 3:9 Those who have been born from God don't live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can't live sinful lives. They have been born from God. (God's Word Translation)

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for His seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (KJV)

************************************************** *****
That which is born of the Spirit is spirit...Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3:6..."That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh - void of the Spirit, at enmity with it; And that which is born of the Spirit is spirit - Is spiritual, heavenly, divine, like its Author.

Jesus, our Precious Saviour, spoke of the necessity and nature of regeneration or the new birth, and at once directed Nicodemus to the source of holiness of the heart. Birth is the beginning of life; to be born again, is to begin to live anew...we must have a new nature, new principles, new affections, new aims. By our first birth we were corrupt, shapen in sin; therefore we must be made new creatures.

This new birth is from heaven...

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. [by His Spirit]

...and its tendency is to heaven. It is a great change made in the heart of a sinner, by the power of the Holy Spirit. It means that something is done in us, and for us, which we cannot do for ourselves.

This new nature cannot sin. If we sin, it is the old nature revived. Unless at once we repent and flee to him he will depart from us.

Whosoever is born of God - By living faith, whereby God is continually breathing spiritual life into his soul, and his soul is continually breathing out love and prayer to God, does not commit sin. For the divine seed of loving faith abides in him; and as long as it does, he cannot sin, because he is born of God - he is inwardly and completely changed. The regenerate life is incompatible with sin, and gives the believer a hatred for sin in every shape, and an unceasing desire to resist it....BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

The sons of God know that their Lord will not allow any thing unholy and impure to dwell with him. It is the hypocrites, not of the sons of God, that try to justify their desires for feeding their impure desires and lusts.

Dear God I pray that, as dear children, we be followers of Him...showing His mercy in our expression of obedient, grateful, humble minds which becomes us.

Sin is the rejecting the Divine law. In Christ, was no sin. He took all the consequences of Adam's fall...all the infirmities of mind or body which cause man to to suffer, and exposes him to temptation. But our moral infirmities, our proneness to sin, he had not.
He that abides in Christ, continues not in the practice of sin. Renouncing sin is the great proof of spiritual union with the Lord Christ. Do not be deceived...he that doeth righteousness is righteous, and to be a follower of Christ, shows an interest by faith in his obedience and sufferings. But a man cannot act like the devil, and at the same time be a disciple of Christ Jesus. Let us not serve or indulge what the Son of God came to destroy. To be born of God is to be inwardly renewed by the power of the Spirit of God. Renewing grace is an abiding principle. Religion is not an art, a matter of dexterity and skill, but a new nature. And the regenerate person cannot sin as he did before he was born of God, and as others do who are not born again. There is that light in his mind, which shows him the evil of sin. There is that knowing within his heart, which causes him to loathe and hate sin. There is the spiritual principle that opposes sinful acts. And there is repentance for sin, if committed. It goes against him to sin with forethought.
The children of God and the children of the devil have their distinct characters. The seed of the serpent are known by neglect of religion, and by their hating real Christians.

He only is righteous before God, as a justified believer, who is taught and lives unto righteousness by the Holy Spirit. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil. May all those who profess the gospel lay these truths to heart, and judge themselves by them.

John 1:13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

1 Peter 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 2:29 If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.

1 John 3:6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.

1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world-- our faith.

1 John 5:18 We know that no one who is born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one who does good is of God; the one who does evil has not seen God.

In Christ's precious love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:12 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,739 posts, read 7,652,235 times
Reputation: 1963
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Hey Bud,

Are you saying that we all can learn how to separate what someone has said previously and only focus on what they are saying now?

I believe that Heartsong is reacting to what Verna has said in previous posts of hers:-

If you have followed Verna's posts you will know that she believes that keeping the commandments including the 4th sabbath is what overcoming is and salvation hinges on that - she keeps the commandments (that is the obedience that God requires, including keeping the sabbath) and is saved --- what she has also said is that if you willfully sin ie do not keep the sabbath, you are not saved and will perish in your sin and either not be resurrected or be resurrected to a second death -- Is that right Verna?

Yes, exactly: we can all learn how to seperate what someone has said previously, and only focus on what they are saying now. I've recently tried to practice that, because it's really not fair to criticize someone's "good" posts because of "bad" prior posts. And also because not everyone reads all the posts that people have made.

A somewhat related question for all: if we repeatedly disagree with a poster (and who hasn't?), but then find a post of theirs that you feel to be 100% accurate and "on the money", will you then rep them for it, or refuse to rep them? (as a means of "getting back" at them)

Like: Whaaa? Give a rep to HIM? NOOooo---WAY!



Bud
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:20 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,577,539 times
Reputation: 1584
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Hey Bud,

Are you saying that we all can learn how to separate what someone has said previously and only focus on what they are saying now?

I believe that Heartsong is reacting to what Verna has said in previous posts of hers:-

If you have followed Verna's posts you will know that she believes that keeping the commandments including the 4th sabbath is what overcoming is and salvation hinges on that - she keeps the commandments (that is the obedience that God requires, including keeping the sabbath) and is saved --- what she has also said is that if you willfully sin ie do not keep the sabbath, you are not saved and will perish in your sin and either not be resurrected or be resurrected to a second death -- Is that right Verna?
Thanks for explaining this Meerkat. That is what I was referring to. I will go back and look at Verna's OP and see exactly what it says. Consider me duly chastised.

Heartsong
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,385,346 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
Yes, exactly: we can all learn how to seperate what someone has said previously, and only focus on what they are saying now. I've recently tried to practice that, because it's really not fair to criticize someone's "good" posts because of "bad" prior posts. And also because not everyone reads all the posts that people have made.

A somewhat related question for all: if we repeatedly disagree with a poster (and who hasn't?), but then find a post of theirs that you feel to be 100% accurate and "on the money", will you then rep them for it, or refuse to rep them? (as a means of "getting back" at them)

Like: Whaaa? Give a rep to HIM? NOOooo---WAY!



Bud
I've given reps to the "enemy." I'm not going to tell you who, though.
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:23 PM
 
5,741 posts, read 4,591,177 times
Reputation: 4162
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
A somewhat related question for all: if we repeatedly disagree with a poster (and who hasn't?), but then find a post of theirs that you feel to be 100% accurate and "on the money", will you then rep them for it, or refuse to rep them? (as a means of "getting back" at them)

Like: Whaaa? Give a rep to HIM? NOOooo---WAY!



Bud
Of course I'll rep them!! And have plenty of times.
And I've recieved more than a fair share of reps from those who normally disagree with me.

If someone is that childish (refusing to acknowledge a good thought/belief/whatever from someone else, just because they normally disagree with them...) then.. wow. I'm not even sure what to say to that. lol.


man, I LOVE when someone I normally disagree with, says something I can stand WITH them on. It's like... "YES! all right... we've got some common ground here." I think there are actually a lot of folks who would agree with me.
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:25 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,723,456 times
Reputation: 263
Verna, what do you think happens to people who "receive Jesus with a pure heart - just the beginning of the process of working out their salvation with fear and trembling" and then die before "becoming born again - which takes time." You say that "until one has reached that point in their process, they are not born again." I think you are getting confused about the difference between first knowing God, and then becoming spiritually mature.

The other point I'd like to make is that in your OP, I appreciate the way you look at people's faces and see their needs, etc. I'm like that, too. The problem I have with your beliefs is that you apparently give yourself much more credit than God for having love and mercy. You talk as if it breaks your heart to think of any of these people not being saved, but you can't do anything about it because it's ultimately out of your hands. However, God can do something about it and you seem to think He won't. Don't you think it breaks His heart? Maybe not since you've accused God of hating these SAME people who you claim to LOVE!!! This seems to elevate yourself above God, IMO.
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:27 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,261 posts, read 6,242,597 times
Reputation: 837
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Verna, you might as well give up boasting in your own righteousness. It is a losing battle you are fighting.......... you are not better than even the worst sinner on the face of the earth. Why can't people believe that? I know, it goes against the ego to consider oneself equal with the worst sinner.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...l#post15195978
You are a very angry person...of which I am truly sorry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
Wait a sec Heartsong...I didn't see anything Verna wrote that could be construed as "boasting". I don't recall that she has said she is "more righteous", or better, than anyone else either. Why the judgement and negativity? Common...let her speak her peace, and then let's move on. Maybe we all will learn something about "missing the mark", if we can get past this stumbling block...

Just IMO...

Bud
Thank you Bud...for your support.

Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Hey Bud,

Are you saying that we all can learn how to separate what someone has said previously and only focus on what they are saying now?

I believe that Heartsong is reacting to what Verna has said in previous posts of hers:-

If you have followed Verna's posts you will know that she believes that keeping the commandments including the 4th sabbath is what overcoming is and salvation hinges on that - she keeps the commandments (that is the obedience that God requires, including keeping the sabbath) and is saved --- what she has also said is that if you willfully sin ie do not keep the sabbath, you are not saved and will perish in your sin and either not be resurrected or be resurrected to a second death -- Is that right Verna?
Yes...but it isn't what I said, it is what God said. But you all don't read the Bible in the light of truth. God said, and I quote...If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Fatherís commandments and abide in his love. He also said, and I quote...That they may walk in my statutes, and keep my ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

so meerkat, you then agree with Heartsong that I boast because I try to teach you what God's Word teaches me/us all?...and I live it...?...so I am a boaster to you too...? I see. o.k. I didn't realize you were of the same mind and heart as Heartsong.

Let me tell you all something...It is God who said to us to keep His commandments if we wish to enter into heaven to be with Him for eternity...I didn't say it...I only believe it...you do not...so carry on...do what you will...you have been warned by me, so your blood is not on my hands.

I truly do not care what you label me...I consider that since the world hates me and wrongly accuses me...I must be in the right place! Amen..? Amen...!!!

Take heed...God's heart is grieved with the those who pervert His truth...

God Bless you.

In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:28 PM
 
3,581 posts, read 458,427 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Thanks for explaining this Meerkat. That is what I was referring to. I will go back and look at Verna's OP and see exactly what it says. Consider me duly chastised.

Heartsong
I am trying to learn from my mistakes
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:33 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 1,723,456 times
Reputation: 263
Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
I am trying to learn from my mistakes
I think it's ok to refer back to a person's other posts if it's a firm stand they've taken. Maybe if they made a comment in passing it gets trivial. But, for example, Verna has made it clear that she believes God hates sinners and only loves believers/non-sinners. I referred to that in my previous post, and I think that's ok.
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Old 07-25-2010, 11:53 PM
 
3,581 posts, read 458,427 times
Reputation: 386
Quote:
Originally Posted by Verna Perry View Post
You are a very angry person...of which I am truly sorry.



Thank you Bud...for your support.


Yes...but it isn't what I said, it is what God said. But you all don't read the Bible in the light of truth. God said, and I quote...If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Fatherís commandments and abide in his love. He also said, and I quote...That they may walk in my statutes, and keep my ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

so meerkat, you then agree with Heartsong that I boast because I try to teach you what God's Word teaches me/us all?...and I live it...?...so I am a boaster to you too...? I see. o.k. I didn't realize you were of the same mind and heart as Heartsong.

Let me tell you all something...It is God who said to us to keep His commandments if we wish to enter into heaven to be with Him for eternity...I didn't say it...I only believe it...you do not...so carry on...do what you will...you have been warned by me, so your blood is not on my hands.

I truly do not care what you label me...I consider that since the world hates me and wrongly accuses me...I must be in the right place! Amen..? Amen...!!!

Take heed...God's heart is grieved with the those who pervert His truth...

God Bless you.

In Christ's love...prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.
Verna,

Verna,

I have said nothing about agreeing with heartsong or disagreeing - I was pointing out to her that she was putting everything that you have ever said into her one post to you

She might have sounded angry in her post to you .... but you sound angry in your post to me .... is that because in the past I have said that I believe in UR ...... or is it because I have said that I do not keep the sabbath as physical Saturday ordinance.......

I personally feel that we enter into the sabbath by belief and faith which is also about faithfulness , and that the physical sabbath was for the Israelites, and it was a symbol of the Spirit which is fulfilled in Christ.

I am not labelling you as anything I am just trying to acknowledge that you do believe that keeping the sabbath is the sign of someone who is born again and saved and will not perish.........

I do agree with you that we are to keep His commandments which I understand to be Love God and love our neighbour as ourselves, and believe that just in case we do not know who our neighbours are we are also told to love our enemies.

I do love you Verna even though in the seventh day sabbath we disagree about what it means, and we also do not agree on the nature or purpose of resurrection .........
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