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I believe the text speaks for itself. God used the words to mean eternal, and a child, as the translators did their job rightly, would understand this very clearly I believe.
Who can grasp your infinite wisdom?
Who can fathom the depths of your love?
I believe the text speaks for itself. God used the words to mean eternal, and a child, as the translators did their job rightly, would understand this very clearly I believe.
"There are absolutes, but it's not what people think."
Eternal punishment is impossible, as the eternal (aidios) has no beginning. And that which is eternal (without beginning or end) by its very nature is not mutable or liable to change. The words endless torment (timorion adialeipton) or eternal imprisonment (eirgmos aidios) do not appear anywhere in the Greek New Testament, at least not in conjunction. Whoever says that there is an eternal time set for punishment beyond this life is sadly mistaken. It's a limited duration of chastisement (aionion kalasin) or correction which is in view, but the day and hour that it begins and ends is unpredictable. Even a child knows that death will come; however, the exact time is unknown to them. Thus, in general the word aionion depicts that of the unseen horizon, which is not in view through times eternal; but is manifested now in the course of this life.
Thank you for clarifying. I saw it in more than one post, and was confused and thought it may be your signature. I will reply to it.
You asked if I believe that Christ is the saviour of the world. Yes, I believe His sacrifice is good enough for an infinite number of people.
Hi JJ that is basically saying He is only the potential saviour of the world. Brother that is not scriptural. Like Jerwade said "Faith is not believing, it's knowing that he will."
John was not asking a question, he was making a statement of testimony of what He believed, and that testimony was Jesus Christ the saviour of the world. That is a pretty clear statement brother, so for those who do not believe Johns testimony about Christ I have to ask them if they believe John was in error to make such a bold statement?
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Now I ask you, must mankind, confess their belief in Christ in order to be part of that salvation? Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. The Bible tells us that one must confess in Christ to have Christ in him. Do you believe this?
Brother, we have been over this already, here was my reply.
But who shall believe brother? You answered yourself and did not even see it.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God
Now we also know that every knee shall bow and tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord and this to the Glory of God the Father.
We also know that no man can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
We also know that this confession that Jesus Christ is Lord is to salvation.
Yet, yet, yet both those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation state that this confession means nothing once one has died. and have no scriptural proof of that claim.
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Do you believe that mankind, without faith and the product of his works via faith, can have faith in Christ after he has physically died? If so, can you provide the verse that reveal this, in its plain meaning, that which we have, whichever translation you prefer?
1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Plus Eze. 37
Plus the scripture about every knee bowing in worship
Now I have supplied scripture that shows the gospel was preached to the dead that they might live according to God in the spirit.
Tit for tat brother, your turn, supply a scripture that states that once man has physically died they cannot be saved.
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Do you believe that new birth, is the resurrection from condemnation to life?
Yes
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How can a physically dead man, with no flesh as a symbol to his sin narture, be reborn?
Read Eze.37
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The eternal torment and annihilaiton doctrines do not affirm that He is "potentially" the saviour of the world, they confirm that He is.
Huh? I’ll give you props for being truthful brother, but that you cannot see just how wrong that is when scripture confirms He is the saviour of the world is beyond me.
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Where the theologies come in conflict, bears on free will and divine providence. Does man come to Christ on his own accord, or is he forced into submission? Or is it more complex, in that does God draw mankind to Him, and seeks mankind's need for Him?
I believe God draws man to Him by love, and man responds to that love. God first chooses us and then we choose Him. In order for a marriage to be consummated both parties must be willing, if not it is rape.
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In Revelation 20, there is neither hope or future redemption for those that aren't written into the book of life. We also see death destroyed, John calling it the second death, and in the following chapter we see no more death for those within the gates of the new jerusalem. The gates are never shut, but those in defiance of the covenant under Christ, those outside that lie, cheat, steal, etc, suffer the second death. The second death is death destroyed in the lake of fire. So it is confirmed that the second death, is an eternal judgement, but there is no evidence of this death, transformed into life. The Bible does not reveal this. It only reveals those in Christ, those who believe, those who overcome, will not be hurt by it. They will live, as the Bible says, with no more tears and death.
I already covered this also in post number 236
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The gospels and epistles are clear, in that one must overcome the obstacles with faith in this life, to inherit eternal life.
I agree, however it is age-abiding (for the 1000 year reign) life and not all believers are overcomers, the whole book of Rev. Is written to the 7 CHURCHES. It is written to CHRISTIANS and if they do not overcome they will have their part in the lake of fire.
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Those who do not, the new testament is also clear, that one will not. Paul never even entertains the possibility of such notions. A read of Luke 12:16-21 would help you further here. Anytime there is a passage of judgement before Christ regarding the physically dead in the Bible, there is no relationship or revelation to the disobedient being give eternal life.
1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
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For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
I do not deny people perish brother, I know others do, but you are not speaking to them you are speaking to me. People perish for their own disobedience, but that does not mean it is the end for them. For we ourselves are to perish our lives that we might live. But even if you do not believe that (it scripture by the way) scripture also tells us that Jesus came to seek and to save the lost/perished. So if perished means what you think it does not one person Jesus came to save can or will be saved. Now that is a horrible gospel.
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But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.
For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Fallen mankind, is on their own, and cannot recieve God's gospel, unless He calls you to obey, as we naturally resistant to His gospel.
And that call is for all JJ not just some. And I don’t believe you are understanding those scriptures. For we were all carnally minded at one time so how is it we ever received anything from God.
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Grace saves us, the gift to us from God. I think we need to think hard about what Christ told all of us, and that is:
Yes, grace saves us brother, but it not only saves us it saves all. Read Ro.5
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enter through the narrow gate, because the wide, leads to destruction.
That scripture is speaking of entering into the kingdom of heaven, so lets put that into the picture and see what it says.
Enter ye into the kingdom of heaven at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go into the kingdom of heaven thereat.
Many will simply go through destruction before they can enter into the kingdom of heaven just as Rev.22 states about those without the gate.
Also of note is to whom this is addressed to. It is addressed to the Christian and this can be clearly seen in Luke 13:23-30
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He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
All shall be baptised brother. Judgment must begin first with the household of God, and brother it is the exact same judgement that all men shall be judged with.
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A child can understand the above two verses very well.
A child can also understand John’s testimony that Jesus Christ the saviour of the world, there is no way a child would read Johns testament and come away with the idea that Jesus Christ is only the potential saviour of the world.
So again, I ask for you to show me a scripture that speaks as plainly of what you believe as the one I gave you concerning John’s testimony.
Brother you whole belief comes from inference and cannot be found plainly spoken of in the scriptures.
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Concerning eternal, and its usage from what you said here:
Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. - ἀκατάλυτος
And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed - ἄφθαρτος
To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you
to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you - ἀμάραντος
As we can see, all of these terms are used in the sense of something indestructible, eternal, and unending in regards to those either saved, or God Himself.
Yep, all words used to express eternal
Now show me where any of those words are used to show forth eternal torment or eternal destruction.
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Now let's look at the lake of fire and eternal torment passages and compare them with other verses that use the same forms and words.
Please pay attention to the two words and examples I use here.
The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay,
The devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are also. They will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. They have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name
and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and the things that are in it, the earth and the things that are in it, and the sea and the things that are in it, that there will no longer be delay,
I heard every created thing which is in heaven, on the earth, under the earth, on the sea, and everything in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion, forever and ever! Amen!"
and he made us to be a Kingdom, priests to his God and Father; to him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Sorry aionios is not the same as Akatalutos-Endless: Aphthartos-incorruptible: Amarantos-fadeth not away: and that is why these word that express endlessness or eternal are NEVER used in reference to Gods judgments.
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pneuma, I believe the text speaks for itself. God used the words to mean eternal, and a child, as the translators did their job rightly, would understand this very clearly I believe. Thanks again for the good talk. God belss you.
Try reading a literal translation JJ, like Young’s or the Emphasised bible. You won’t find the word eternal in one of them. Wonder why that would be, could it be because aionios NEVER meant eternal? Or I suppose you believe these translators did not do their job properly.
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P.S. I hope my post is read more easily, as I tried to format it more legibly
Yes much better brother, thank you for doing it that way as it is much easier to read.
Hi JJ that is basically saying He is only the potential saviour of the world. Brother that is not scriptural. Like Jerwade said "Faith is not believing, it's knowing that he will."
Hello pneuma,
Thank you for your response. How is He poterntially saviour of the world? His sacrifice is good for all, that doesn;t make it potential, it makes it certain. What you have done is imposed the teaching of "all will be saved" and placed it into a passgae that does not imply that at all. What it implies, in context, is that His sacrifice is good for all. Do you believe that confession must be a pre-requisite for salvation?
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John was not asking a question, he was making a statement of testimony of what He believed, and that testimony was Jesus Christ the saviour of the world. That is a pretty clear statement brother, so for those who do not believe Johns testimony about Christ I have to ask them if they believe John was in error to make such a bold statement?
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Yes it is a clear statement, which does not imply that all will be saved. Just that His sacrfice is for all.
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Brother, we have been over this already, here was my reply.
But who shall believe brother? You answered yourself and did not even see it.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God
Now we also know that every knee shall bow and tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord and this to the Glory of God the Father.
We also know that no man can say Jesus Christ is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.
We also know that this confession that Jesus Christ is Lord is to salvation.
Yet, yet, yet both those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation state that this confession means nothing once one has died. and have no scriptural proof of that claim.
pneuma, there is plenty of Biblical proof that there is no salvation after death if one has not confessed. Isaiah 45, Romans 14 and Phillipians 2 does not imply this at all. Wht it does imply is that "all Israel" shall bow and confess to Christ as Lord, and by His rule and authority, that of an Iron Sceptre, governs all in regards to salvation. These texts do not imply that wicked and unsaved persons will accept. The context is always in favor of the elect and the saved.
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1 Peter 4:6
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Plus Eze. 37
Plus the scripture about every knee bowing in worship
Now I have supplied scripture that shows the gospel was preached to the dead that they might live according to God in the spirit.
Tit for tat brother, your turn, supply a scripture that states that once man has physically died they cannot be saved.
I believe, since it is set in the past tense, 1 Peter 4 is about what Christ did when He died and went into Hades, to proclaim, not to preach the gospel to, but herald that He was victorious.
Ezekiel 37 is about the restoration of Judah, under Christ. See Eph 2:14
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I believe God draws man to Him by love, and man responds to that love. God first chooses us and then we choose Him. In order for a marriage to be consummated both parties must be willing, if not it is rape.
Agreed.
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I agree, however it is age-abiding (for the 1000 year reign) life and not all believers are overcomers, the whole book of Rev. Is written to the 7 CHURCHES. It is written to CHRISTIANS and if they do not overcome they will have their part in the lake of fire.
It is written to the 7 churches yes, but it also covers many judgements for the wicked, as in the bowls/vials/second death, etc.
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I do not deny people perish brother, I know others do, but you are not speaking to them you are speaking to me. People perish for their own disobedience, but that does not mean it is the end for them. For we ourselves are to perish our lives that we might live. But even if you do not believe that (it scripture by the way) scripture also tells us that Jesus came to seek and to save the lost/perished. So if perished means what you think it does not one person Jesus came to save can or will be saved. Now that is a horrible gospel.
Perish for not believing.
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That scripture is speaking of entering into the kingdom of heaven, so lets put that into the picture and see what it says.
Enter ye into the kingdom of heaven at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go into the kingdom of heaven thereat.
Many will simply go through destruction before they can enter into the kingdom of heaven just as Rev.22 states about those without the gate.
Also of note is to whom this is addressed to. It is addressed to the Christian and this can be clearly seen in Luke 13:23-30
It is addressed to all, those who will believe and those who will not in my opinion.
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All shall be baptised brother. Judgment must begin first with the household of God, and brother it is the exact same judgement that all men shall be judged with.
It did begin with the household of God, Israel, in the first century, as Matt 24:1-2 having been fulfilled for their execution of Christ. I believe we are on the same page here.
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So again, I ask for you to show me a scripture that speaks as plainly of what you believe as the one I gave you concerning John’s testimony.
Life = Life
Death = Death
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Sorry aionios is not the same as Akatalutos-Endless: Aphthartos-incorruptible: Amarantos-fadeth not away: and that is why these word that express endlessness or eternal are NEVER used in reference to Gods judgments.
An error on your part in interpretation I believe. I believe you have implied "incorruptible" which deals with God and the saints as in their body and nature, and placed it for the wicked in reagrds to a judicial decree. Two very different things I feel.
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Yes much better brother, thank you for doing it that way as it is much easier to read.
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God bless
Your welcome. I am getting the hang of it. So many forums and so many ways of conversing/replying.
God bless you as well.
"Faith is not believing, it's knowing that he will."
Hello Jerwade,
Thank you for replying to me. Faith is knowing that He did.
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you.
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.
pneuma, there is plenty of Biblical proof that there is no salvation after death if one has not confessed.
I am curious what biblical proof you are referring to ... ?
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Isaiah 45, Romans 14 and Phillipians 2 does not imply this at all. Wht it does imply is that "all Israel" shall bow and confess to Christ as Lord, and by His rule and authority, that of an Iron Sceptre, governs all in regards to salvation. These texts do not imply that wicked and unsaved persons will accept. The context is always in favor of the elect and the saved.
Philippians :2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Where does it say Israel in this chapter? I don't even see the mention of Israel ... I do read "every knee" shall bow, "in heaven ... on earth ... and under the earth". That sounds like everything in creation to me ... Just like this verse ...
Rev 5:13
Then I heard every creaturein heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!"
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I believe, since it is set in the past tense, 1 Peter 4 is about what Christ did when He died and went into Hades, to proclaim, not to preach the gospel to, but herald that He was victorious.
Ezekiel 37 is about the restoration of Judah, under Christ. See Eph 2:14
I have heard this argument. The argument that Christ went to hell and paraded before the lost souls and or the fallen angels his victory over them. According to this argument, Christ is basically rubbing their face in it, gloating over their defeat and announcing their everlasting doom.
Of course the word used in the Greek which is translated "the good news was preached" is ...
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euhggelisqh euEggelisthE
G2097
vi Aor Pas 3 Sg
IS-WELL-MESSAGizED
is-brought-a-well-message
euaggelizō - 1) to bring good news, to announce glad tidings a) used in the OT of any kind of good news 1) of the joyful tidings of God's kindness, in particular, of the Messianic blessings b) in the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation c) glad tidings are brought to one, one has glad tidings proclaimed to him d) to proclaim glad tidings 1) instruct (men) concerning the things that pertain to Christian salvation
So what ever message is being delivered, it is good news and well received by those to whom the message is being delivered . In this case it is those who are dead. So Christ cannot be said to be announcing his triumph over them, or their future doom. That argument simply doesn't fit the language of the scriptures.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-08-2010 at 03:46 PM..
Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present [us] with you.
For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward [man] is renewed day by day.
Care to rebut the verses? Thanks and God bless.
I find nothing to refute in the Scriptures you mentioned, although I will say that the "Faith of Christ" encompasses all there is; past, present, and future. You may see the Scriptures from the positionality of an orthodox literal view, having an "us" and "them" mentality. I, on the other hand do not.
"The tree of knowledge resides within the-ologies of men, moving back and forth between two poles; life and death"
Although word knowledge is important, so perhaps, you should study the meaning of perished, Apollumi; as wine perishes in old wine skins, never having life in and of itself. Christ was sent to give us life; and more abundantly.
Greek words meaning "to deprive of life" resulting in death, would resemble these:
1) Phazoo; to slay.
2) Anaireoco; to massacre or assassinate.
3) Phoneuco; to murder.
4) Apokteinco, meaning; to kill.
We are to study to show ourselves approved, not to disapprove of others.
I have a saying, a personal quote and hope you are not offended with it, as it is not directed at you personally, but:
"Man cannot comprehend the existence of error; when to deeply immersed in it."
Would you annihilate a person because he/she does not believe – in the name of the Christ? In the sense that those who do not believe will perish, given your understanding of the word, or did I misunderstand you? Because as Ironmaw pointed out, in the end "every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." I take this to mean that All will come to the knowledge of the truth.
"Truth is something not before realized."
Thank you for listening.
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