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As Christians we do what Scripture clearly tells us and avoid what it also tells us to avoid. Now ehere does it say the conmgregation is to pay a "salary" to a pastor/minister/elder whatever?
You've been quoted the passages. You've been shown that an elder that teaches and manages the church's affairs is worthy of being paid. On the other hand, you have yet to show us any sort of passage that tells us a church CANNOT have a pastor on staff to minister to them.
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This does not mean a person cannot make a contribution when they wish, but that is a choice and not a salary, but a ... "love offering" if you will. I supported myself by working a secular job for over 25 years of pastoring, and was never in want and never received a salary at all and ... virtually no such "gifts" either.
Is that what this comes down to? You're bitter that you never got paid? Is it jealousy?
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Again Mormon's and Jehovah's Witnesses pay no salary yet grow at a rate above any other church. How can they do that and others can't.
Nothing to do with doctrine or teaching, etc, but all to do with why they can do it.
Moderator cut: deleted: Please refer to Sticky at top of the forum.
No offense, but if someone is being paid money to visit the sick, and I'm that sick person, I'd just as soon not have that person come around.
I'll take the non-paid volunteer, including the Pagan carrying a basket of home-made bread who is doing it out of the goodness of her heart, every time.
You and me both.
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Originally Posted by expatCA
Well I generally get it in a pay check from .... working hard and using part of all I have to advance God's interests. Oh, I do own my own business and it seems at times as though God does help us. I have never taken a dime from any Congregation I was a Minister/Pastor at for such work. No need for it.
You sound a bit like a writer I was reading today; Paul of Tarsus.
To pay a pastor a salary IS a choice. No one is forcing anyone to become a member and support the pastor. And few congregations (strike that; make it NO congregations that I personally know of) actually force even their members to contribute.
Once I belonged to such a church. Later I left it.
You've been quoted the passages. You've been shown that an elder that teaches and manages the church's affairs is worthy of being paid. On the other hand, you have yet to show us any sort of passage that tells us a church CANNOT have a pastor on staff to minister to them.
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The NT commands us to work with our hands.
Ephesians 4:28
1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
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Jesus condemned hirelings in the church.
John 10:9-14
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Paul railed against ministers touching the collection.
II Thes. 3:7-9
I Thes. 2:9
Acts 18:3
Acts 20:33-31
I Cor. 4:9-16
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Elders were appointed to distribute the collection to widows and orphans.
Acts 6: 1-3
1 Timothy 5:1-15
Paul worked for a living. He worked his trade.
1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
2 Corinthians 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
1 Thessalonians 2:8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.
:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
Once I belonged to such a church. Later I left it.
Your choice and you are very welcome to it.
There's nothing wrong with you choosing not to belong to such a church, any more than there is anything wrong with people choosing to pay their pastor a salary.
The NT commands us to work with our hands.
Ephesians 4:28
1 Thessalonians 4:11-12
Pastors work ... presumably with their hands, and their feet and their arms and their backs and their minds as well.
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Jesus condemned hirelings in the church.
John 10:9-14
"
"The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep."
"He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them."
This passage has nothing to do with whether or not a pastor should be paid. It's not about pastors at all. It's an allegory. The passage says that ANYONE who doesn't own the sheep is going to let the wolf snatch them. If this is supposed to be about pastors, that means unless your pastor (paid or not) is the Good Shepherd himself and OWNS the sheep, he's going to let them be scattered.
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Paul railed against ministers touching the collection.
II Thes. 3:7-9
I Thes. 2:9
"If anyone is not willing to work, neither should he eat."
"We worked day and night that we might not be a burden to you."
Show me a pastor who doesn't work, and I'll agree that he shouldn't be paid.
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Acts 18:3
Acts 20:33-31
"And because he [Paul] was of the same trade as they were, he stayed and worked with them."
"I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel... these hands ministered to my necessities and those with me."
That's nice, but that's hardly Paul railing about anything.
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Elders were appointed to distribute the collection to widows and orphans.
Acts 6: 1-3
1 Timothy 5:1-15
What does that have to do with pastors being paid or not?
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Paul worked for a living. He worked his trade.
I Cor. 4:9-16
1 Corinthians 9:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
:19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
2 Corinthians 11:8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
So, he did take wages from some churches.
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1 Thessalonians 2:8 So being affectionately desirous of you, we were willing to have imparted unto you, not the gospel of God only, but also our own souls, because ye were dear unto us.
:9 For ye remember, brethren, our labour and travail: for labouring night and day, because we would not be chargeable unto any of you, we preached unto you the gospel of God.
:10 Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:
2 Thessalonians 3:7 For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
:8 Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
:9 Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
Look at the Thes passages ... What exactly do you think Paul was laboring at night and day? Pretty sure, he says here he was preaching the Gospel. That was the work he was doing -- and eating other people's bread, but NOT FOR NOUGHT, because he was doing the work he came to do.
Sounds like a paid full-time pastor to me, although Paul wasn't a actually a pastor of any congregation, as I recall. He was a roving preacher ... a self-proclaimed apostle ... but not a pastor.
Gospel writer Luke does Not think Paul was a self-proclaimed pastor because at Acts 9 v 15 Luke writes that Jesus chose Paul to be a chosen vessel before the gentile nations including kings.....
Missionary Paul made many extensive travels in his missionary assignments.
Gospel writer Luke does Not think Paul was a self-proclaimed pastor because at Acts 9 v 15 Luke writes that Jesus chose Paul to be a chosen vessel before the gentile nations including kings.....
Missionary Paul made many extensive travels in his missionary assignments.
If that is directed at me, I didn't say self-proclaimed pastor. I said self-proclaimed apostle. He did proclaim himself to be an apostle, not a pastor.
If that is directed at me, I didn't say self-proclaimed pastor. I said self-proclaimed apostle. He did proclaim himself to be an apostle, not a pastor.
Sorry I was not more clear.
Apostle to the nations at Romans 11 v 13, but Not self proclaimed in meaning Paul took it upon himself to be or call himself as an apostle, but rather because Lord Jesus already directly chose Paul for that office.
- Acts 9 v 15; Acts 22 v 21; Acts 26 vs 16,17 - Apostle meaning from the Greek [ apostello ] as one 'sent forth ' - Matthew 10 v 5. Paul was ' sent forth ' to the gentile nations.
Sorry I was not more clear.
Apostle to the nations at Romans 11 v 13, but Not self proclaimed in meaning Paul took it upon himself to be or call himself as an apostle, but rather because Lord Jesus already directly chose Paul for that office.
- Acts 9 v 15; Acts 22 v 21; Acts 26 vs 16,17 - Apostle meaning from the Greek [ apostello ] as one 'sent forth ' - Matthew 10 v 5. Paul was ' sent forth ' to the gentile nations.
Jesus is also apostle at Hebrews 3 v 1
I maybe should've worded it differently, but my focus was on the fact that Paul considered himself an apostle, not a pastor.
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