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That is part of God that I love, that he can become angry, that he can kill and destroy as much as love. God is like electricity, which is very good when used properly, but when not used properly can kill you. That is why we respect(fear) God. A good respect will keep you alive.
I think this destruction and anger that God possess reveals his awesomeness and power. No man can come to God, touch God, look upon God or else they will die. But when we come through Jesus Christ we can boldly come to the throne of God without fear.
It is through Jesus Christ we are saved. It is though Jesus Christ that we can come bodly to God.
So, in the OT man could not come to God in the way we can now. That is why God appears different in the OT and the NT. However, God as seen in the OT was still full of mercy and justice and love.
Again, what makes you and I so special? Why not also be fair to man BEFORE the NT?
Agreed in concept, but then again, God is a convenient excuse to rationalize doing nothing about the vast human greed and evil that exists on the planet as being the cause of that starvation in the first place
Just my opinion and not up for debate since I am not a bible literalist and do not beleive it was "breathed" by God..
The OT is said to be the oraL and written (when writing came into existance) history of the Jewish nation..Most of the "stories were handed down from generation to generation , added to, taken from in the way of explaining why bad things happen..and man's evolvement from, barbarianism into civilized societies governed by moral codes..For my self it is the history of religion and the search for a creator..
I do believe that God did inspire the prophecies of the coming savior who would show mankind the love of God for all his creation..Christ put an end to the wrathful, hateful, demanding God that was created by the ancient people to explain the unexplainable and the atrocities brought on by their wars against each other..
I agree wholeheartedly with your first paragraph Miss Blue and the latter part of your second.
Anyway I tend to think the Old Testament is about a world where all justice has to be in this life and is also about the Jews surviving and surviving as a separate people. In order to survive the millennia as a separate people it was necessary to avoid mixing with others as much as possible. As it was a "dog-eat-dog" world I guess that led to some things we'd deem atrocities.
And so it was indeed. So when we read in Numbers 31 that god told Moses to go massacre the Midianites, was it truly a deity speaking to the guy, or was he a dog trying to eat another dog and then someone else making the claim it was god who told him to send down the order?
Be that as it may most actual starving mothers in Africa believe in God, Allah, or the Gods. From the perspective of someone poor and powerless atheism often has nothing to offer. (The exception being some Secularist-Socialist and Communist groups that offer aid) At least with God/Allah/The-Gods she can have the hope her child will live on after death and experience more joy than she/he did on Earth. Also have a community of believers to support her in times of trouble. Atheism in itself doesn't offer community in that way and also does not give her a hope for greater things as such.
Anyway I tend to think the Old Testament is about a world where all justice has to be in this life and is also about the Jews surviving and surviving as a separate people. In order to survive the millennia as a separate people it was necessary to avoid mixing with others as much as possible. As it was a "dog-eat-dog" world I guess that led to some things we'd deem atrocities.
I am not an Athiest...I just don't believe in, adhere to, worship or grovel to the bible god...huge difference. You say that a mother watching her children die has hope...apparently you've never been to these places and witnessed first hand what goes on...I can assure you that these mothers are not hoping for a better afterlife, they are hoping someone will help save their children now...your ignorance is astounding and is typical of the way most religious folks think.
Why is it that you think only religious folk can offer community and no one else can? Again, another typical belief that somehow religious folk are more moral and upstanding than everyone else and that they are the only ones who can truly offer anything to the world. Sorry pal...but history itself shows us what religion has done for the world.
The Jews have always tried to separate themselves as distinct and better than everyone else...because they were the "chosen people" according to their book. They are no different than any other cult which tries to separate themselves from the rest of the world and claim they are superior. What most don't understand is that they aren't any more "chosen" than anyone else on this planet and just because they wrote a book stating they were...does not make it so. A little education in the areas of ancient archeology, the ancient origins of religious belief, the ancient origins of the bible, ancient comparative religions, ancient mythology, ancient astrotheology, etc...will clearly show one this. This book was man-made and it was made by them (although many ideas were stolen from other cultures) and expressly for them to show the world around them how "special" they were because their god had chosen them...the very god they stole from another culture and renamed to benefit them and what they wanted to believe and what they wanted everyone else to believe.
From my time being here in City-Data, I've come to realize that not all Christians are created equally. There are those who are literalist, who believe that just about every word in the bible should be understood and interpreted literally and they have their own confusions and contradictions to work through, however, I am a little more puzzled about those who seem to spiritualize everything to make the more bizzare and atrocicious things in the bible more palatable.
There are Christians here who emphasize the love of their god and that can be a very good thing because they focus on a positive aspect, but how do they reconcile the things in the bible that reflect an angry, jealous, brooding, judgmental god who is also supposed to be an earlier version of the same god of love they worship? How do they explain away Old Testament commands to enslave, discriminate and kill other people? Weren't these commands literal or were they just words that were left out there for creative interpretations (spiritualizing) and mental/verbal gymnastics?
Let's remember that Israel was not held "guilty" for being slaves of Egypt!
I am not an Athiest...I just don't believe in, adhere to, worship or grovel to the bible god...huge difference. You say that a mother watching her children die has hope...apparently you've never been to these places and witnessed first hand what goes on...I can assure you that these mothers are not hoping for a better afterlife, they are hoping someone will help save their children now...
Yes, of course. But when/if that doesn't happen what does irreligion have to offer her? For that matter while the kids starving what does irreligion offer? At least religion might offer her some kind of emotional support.
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Originally Posted by ChristyGrl
your ignorance is astounding and is typical of the way most religious folks think.
Insulting me isn't going to make your point any more sensible or valid.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl
Why is it that you think only religious folk can offer community and no one else can?
I don't think I ever said that. I said that in itself atheism or irreligion do not offer community. If atheists or irreligious have community it's from something else. All irreligion or "no Bible God" tells us is what someone is not, not what they are. If they have community it's from what they are, (positivists, rationalists, humanists, soccer fans, coin collectors, birdwatchers, whatever) not what they are not.
On some level telling us you don't believe in the Biblical idea of God tells us very little. Encouraging disbelief in the Bible God is also in essence a negative action as it's simply about negating something than building anything. If this is all you have than yeah you or your ilk have little to offer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl
Again, another typical belief that somehow religious folk are more moral and upstanding than everyone else and that they are the only ones who can truly offer anything to the world. Sorry pal...but history itself shows us what religion has done for the world.
Started the Irish literary tradition, led to the invention of mechanical clocks, created the Medieval University system, brought literacy to the Slavic peoples, brought literacy to much of Africa, reformed prisons, built hospitals, helped end totalitarian Communism, saved the lives of numerous disabled from euthanasia programs, etc. Yeah I know all that stuff. And I know the bad stuff too.
The point though isn't that religious people are better than you. More that they offer something irreligion or non-theism don't and have the capacity to produce better people than most secular groups do even if the averages are roughly the same. Still I would put the Community of Sant'Egidio, the Quakers, the Salvation Army, or Mennonites up against about any secular group.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl
The Jews have always tried to separate themselves as distinct and better than everyone else...because they were the "chosen people" according to their book. They are no different than any other cult which tries to separate themselves from the rest of the world and claim they are superior.
Although I understand what you're getting at implying the Jews are a separatist cult is maybe not the wisest thing in the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl
What most don't understand is that they aren't any more "chosen" than anyone else on this planet and just because they wrote a book stating they were...does not make it so. A little education in the areas of ancient archeology, the ancient origins of religious belief, the ancient origins of the bible, ancient comparative religions, ancient mythology, ancient astrotheology, etc...will clearly show one this. This book was man-made and it was made by them (although many ideas were stolen from other cultures) and expressly for them to show the world around them how "special" they were because their god had chosen them...the very god they stole from another culture and renamed to benefit them and what they wanted to believe and what they wanted everyone else to believe.
Well what you think on the matter is up to you. That "El" was used as a word for God before Judaism is true, but this doesn't necessarily told us they stole someone's God. Using the same name doesn't necessarily imply stealing. Some Chinese Christians use the name "Shang-Ti" for God, but this doesn't mean the Christian God is just Shang-Ti. There is an interesting inscription that may say "Yhw son of El" but the significance of it is not really that clear.
The Jewish conception of Yahweh does have many unique features unlike other religions. Secular scholarship is often going to look to explain those away, and that's maybe to be expected, but it's not real proof in the way you maybe want.
...how do they reconcile the things in the bible that reflect an angry, jealous, brooding, judgmental god who is also supposed to be an earlier version of the same god of love they worship?... How do they explain away Old Testament commands to enslave, discriminate and kill other people?
It sounds like you were referring to the Old Testament in both of these situations. And it was written for a much different reason, by much different people than Christians, early or later. The Old Testament was working to create a unified PEOPLE of the BOOK, rather than of a land. To really understand the Old Testament, you have to study ancient peoples, AND how it was written, and re-written, repeatedly.
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Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane
Weren't these commands literal or were they just words that were left out there for creative interpretations (spiritualizing) and mental/verbal gymnastics?
There are good lessons in the Old Testament, but as in the New, they are parables, and never to be taken literally. Nor are they cohesive, but instead to be read separately. Usually, they demonstrate how constant attention to God and God's Will is required. Past holiness does not apply, you have to continue to act in a manner higher than your animal instincts to remain holy.
As for interpretations that get creative and "out there" -- the older Christianity had terms for that behavior. In fact, most religions do not embrace persons getting creative with their religion, though Christians do tend to have a history of being a bit more violent about it.
If you have a true interest in the Bible, I suggest studying it within the program of your chosen flavor of church. Recall the ORIGINAL intent was to form a PEOPLE of THE BOOK. Find your people, study their book.
Yes, of course. But when/if that doesn't happen what does irreligion have to offer her? For that matter while the kids starving what does irreligion offer? At least religion might offer her some kind of emotional support.
So, according to you, only the religious can offer emotional support...because of their hope in an alleged after life. Like I previously said, a mother who is watching her child die doesn't give a rats behind about some alleged afterlife and if you've ever have an opportunity to witness what happens first hand, I suggest you do so...you may actually learn something.
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Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Insulting me isn't going to make your point any more sensible or valid.
I wasn't trying to insult you at all...I was just pointing out the profound ingnorance of the statement you made considering you've never witnessed what actually happens in that situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
I don't think I ever said that. I said that in itself atheism or irreligion do not offer community. If atheists or irreligious have community it's from something else. All irreligion or "no Bible God" tells us is what someone is not, not what they are. If they have community it's from what they are, (positivists, rationalists, humanists, soccer fans, coin collectors, birdwatchers, whatever) not what they are not.
So, according to your estimation, real community can only be offered by the religious? I believe many non-religous folks would differ with your estimation of what constitutes community.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
On some level telling us you don't believe in the Biblical idea of God tells us very little. Encouraging disbelief in the Bible God is also in essence a negative action as it's simply about negating something than building anything. If this is all you have than yeah you or your ilk have little to offer.
Yes, you are absolutely correct...I strongly encourage disbelief in the bible god because that is not who or what god is at all...and just a little bit of education in the ancient origins of religious belief, ancient origins of the bible, ancient astrotheology, ancient archeology, ancient mythology, ancient comparative religions, etc...clearly shows one that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Started the Irish literary tradition, led to the invention of mechanical clocks, created the Medieval University system, brought literacy to the Slavic peoples, brought literacy to much of Africa, reformed prisons, built hospitals, helped end totalitarian Communism, saved the lives of numerous disabled from euthanasia programs, etc. Yeah I know all that stuff. And I know the bad stuff too.
Yes...we all know the bad stuff and it stands out and far outweighs the good stuff...and continues to do so to the present day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
The point though isn't that religious people are better than you. More that they offer something irreligion or non-theism don't and have the capacity to produce better people than most secular groups do even if the averages are roughly the same. Still I would put the Community of Sant'Egidio, the Quakers, the Salvation Army, or Mennonites up against about any secular group.
Here, yet again, is another profoundly ignorant statement...only religions can produce better people. Religions produces deluded people...sheeple...most of whom are waiting for some new earth while our current one goes to pot and they sit on their arses not doing nothing about it...cause hey, it's all gonna get burned up anyway.
Yes, that is sooooooo much better than rational, logical, freethinking people who actually try to make the world a better place and one worth living in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Although I understand what you're getting at implying the Jews are a separatist cult is maybe not the wisest thing in the world.
CULT:
1. a particular system of religious worship, esp. with reference to its rites and ceremonies.
2. an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers: the physical fitness cult.
3. the object of such devotion.
4. a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
5. Sociology . a group having a sacred ideology and a set of rites centering around their sacred symbols.
6. a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
7. the members of such a religion or sect.
8. any system for treating human sickness that originated by a person usually claiming to have sole insight into the nature of disease, and that employs methods regarded as unorthodox or unscientific.
Why? It's true isn't it? They are no different than any other cult who sets themselves up as separate and somehow more privileged and special than the rest of humanity...this includes Christianity, Islam, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R.
Well what you think on the matter is up to you. That "El" was used as a word for God before Judaism is true, but this doesn't necessarily told us they stole someone's God. Using the same name doesn't necessarily imply stealing. Some Chinese Christians use the name "Shang-Ti" for God, but this doesn't mean the Christian God is just Shang-Ti. There is an interesting inscription that may say "Yhw son of El" but the significance of it is not really that clear.
The Jewish conception of Yahweh does have many unique features unlike other religions. Secular scholarship is often going to look to explain those away, and that's maybe to be expected, but it's not real proof in the way you maybe want.
While they may have attempted to make themselves seem unique...archeology bears out that they weren't all that unique at all and many of their scriptures were directly stolen from other cultures...surely you know this.
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Religions produces deluded people...sheeple...most of whom are waiting for some new earth while our current one goes to pot and they sit on their arses not doing nothing about it...cause hey, it's all gonna get burned up anyway. 
