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Of course you are missing something. God was misunderstood by our ignorant primitive ancestors under the veil of ignorance covering the reading of the OT. Jesus came to reveal the TRUE NATURE of God and remove the veil of ignorance so that OUR UNDERSTANDING of God would change . . . NOTGod.
My love for God has absolutely nothing to do with...our ignorant primitive ancestors understanding of the OT. WE love because He first loved us!! I am so sorry that YOUR GOD has changed on you, mine hasn't!
That's not what UR says. In UR man is saved by his own endurance of judgement in the fire, not Christ's endurance on the cross.
Well, what you decide something says does not change the problem I mentioned.
All are saved through Jesus Christ, that is what I believe, and that is what most if not all of the Christian Universalists here believe.
Your perspective is incorrect if you believe that people saying Jesus Christ is the only way and all are saved through Jesus Christ is not making Jesus the center of their beliefs.
The religious aspect of this is that through your efforts to refute Christian Universalism you focus upon Christ in a way that will show to be contradictory. From your past comments, you maintain that man must make a choice, apparantly from your point of view you have overlooked that is showing that while Jesus endured pain and suffering on the cross, man still bears a responsibility. Unless of course your work around to your contradiction is to say that Jesus endurance on the cross was sufficient, but only for the select few that God has chosen and the rest have no avenue for reconciliation in the first place.
So which is it?
If your objection to CU is mans responsibility in the afterlife and Christ was not enough (or ultimatly you believe that is what CU adds up to), then you must feel that Christ paid the price for all in this life and that is sufficient so man bears no responsibility.
The problem is that your past statements then cause a conclusion that not all are saved, only because God has not chosen all to be saved in the first place.
Otherwise, your objection contradicts itself by stating that Jesus Christ endurance on the cross was not quite sufficient because man still bears a responsibility concerning salvation.
That's not what UR says. In UR man is saved by his own endurance of judgement in the fire, not Christ's endurance on the cross.
No that is not it either. Enduring the fire does not save. Turning to Christ from within the fire saves.
Here is the principle.
Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Notice that
- the curse does not save.
- enduring the curse doesn't save
- what saves is returning to Christ, and obeying Him
No that is not it either. Enduring the fire does not save. Turning to Christ from within the fire saves.
Here is the principle.
Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Notice that
- the curse does not save.
- enduring the curse doesn't save
- what saves is returning to Christ, and obeying Him
And there is nothing in the scriptures that say such will happen to one in the lake of fire.
And what does Deut 30 have anything to do with this premise when its focus in only for the seed of Jacob, chosen from among the nations??
And there is nothing in the scriptures that say such will happen to one in the lake of fire.
And what does Deut 30 have anything to do with this premise when its focus in only for the seed of Jacob, chosen from among the nations??
You missed the point. The point of me quoting Deut 30 was to get you to see that you misrepresented WHAT we believe. We do not believe the fire saves. We do not believe that enduring the fire saves. Similarly, the curse in Deut 30 does not save. Neither does enduring the curse save. The curse has a purpose, but its purpose is not to save. Similarly the fire has a purpose, but not to save.
My love for God has absolutely nothing to do with...our ignorant primitive ancestors understanding of the OT. WE love because He first loved us!! I am so sorry that YOUR GOD has changed on you, mine hasn't!
Are you completely incapable of seeing the difference between what human beings THINK God is like and what God actually is like. What we THINK God is like iswhat needed to change . . . NOT God!!! We needed to accept that what our ignorant ancestors thought God was like was WRONG and that Jesus SHOWED us what He truly is like!!! Why is this so difficult for you to understand, Betsey. God is not changing . . . Jesus is removing the veil of ignorance over reading the OT!!
Are you completely incapable of seeing the difference between what human beings THINK God is like and what God actually is like. What we THINK God is like iswhat needed to change . . . NOT God!!! We needed to accept that what our ignorant ancestors thought God was like was WRONG and that Jesus SHOWED us what He truly is like!!! Why is this so difficult for you to understand, Betsey. God is not changing . . . Jesus is removing the veil of ignorance over reading the OT!!
Quit obsessing over the OT. I totally understand what you're saying MysticPHD. God's the same...today, tomorrow, yesterday. Tonight He'll still be the same...always and forever!
We can read the OT, NLT, KJV, LWT, old testament, new testament...any kind of "estament" all you want, we STILL need to answer the call, accept His Gift of Salvation in THIS LIFE! There's still only one WAY, and one way only.......that's through the blood of JESUS!!
She may not have read the whole thread though, but most of our responses she should have seen though. I thought by setting an 'example' by stating I would 'purposely' do it to prove my point, was just read over though. Didn't mean to upset her though. She should read all of our responses to the OP and compare it to what she said to ME, to see what I was talking about. Its obvious that Mike and Sciota got it though.
Nice to see ya around again Lego....havent seen you around lately.
God Bless
Joe
Hi Joe (and Betsey)
I see Betsey acknowledged her error, so props to Betsey for that.
I think the point is we all need to SLOWWWWWW DOWWWWWN and read and understand what the other person has to say before jumping down their throats.
I've been trying to temper my posting here a bit, reading more than posting, sometimes the debates take you places you don't want to go... plus I actually have things to do in the real world!
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