Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If someone wants to divide time periods to Law, Grace and Kingdom, then what harm does it do? What is so heretical about that? It has no relevance to salvation, so when someone says "all they taught me was dispensation" all I can do is wonder what that statement even means. Did they not teach salvation through faith in Christ? Did they not teach the gospels? Did they not teach the book of Romans, and Acts? Did they not teach Moses? Did they not teach the Kings of Israel?
Is there harm in it?Maybe ,maybe not.I am responding to the arrogant claims in other threads that people who do not believe in dispensationalism do so because they refuse to see the truth.The truth is dispensationalism is regarded as a fringe element by traditional Christianity.It could be said that there is no harm in believing in it,but it is complete arrogance to claim that people who don't believe it are in deliberate error and refuse to acknowledge the truth of it.The Church has rejected it wholeheartedly except for some fringe fundie elements who are not biblically literate enough to see the error in Darby's ideas.
I can assure you Mike that it's not a matter of not willing to. I would be more than happy to share the truth about this subject with anybody as it pertains to scripture.
Trying to present "proof" from scripture to silence a critic isn't what's it all about for me. When I try to do that, I find that I'm trying to revel in my superiority of knowledge which I don't think is our purpose. I attempt not to reference any outside source other than God's Word, which I could do. No offense, just because somebody starts a church or preaches from one for 50 yrs doesn't make him correct. All that says to me is he's be wrong for 50 yrs.
Your views are squarely from the baptist theology and synergism. Those who have synergism views have shown a pattern of other teachings that just seem to follow. It is my contention that if you were to understand that synergism was not scriptural, that quite possibly your view of Milleniumism would also be different.
Can I "proof" that theory...no, but you have yet to disprove it also.
Twin.spin, I can't make you or anyone else believe anything, and I wouldn't 'MAKE' anyone if I could. But I have shown FROM SCRIPTURE that the Millennial kingdom is literal and established by Christ at His return. I have provided Scripture in post #131 which gives some of the details and conditions that will exist in the Millennium.
In post #140 you used this verse aparently to show a throne in Heaven.
--------
"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory."
The Son of Man when he comes will sit on his throne in heavenly glory...not establish a earthly kingdom Matthew 25:31
---------
But the passage is correctly translated as 'But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
Jesus when He returns will reign from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
Zechariah 14:16 'Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17] And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.
In the following link there are 13 different Scriptural passages which show that Jesus will rule from Jerusalem on the throne of David. There is a little bit of commentary, but it is primarily about the listed passages. When Will Christ Sit on David's Throne?
At the end of the thousand year earthly kingdom, Satan will be released temporarily to deceive those members of the human race who rejected Christ as Savior and to incite them to revolt against Him. Jesus will rain down fire from heaven on them. This is all recorded in Revelation 20:7-10.
The promises that God made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are eternal in nature and unconditional. The Abrahamic and Palestinian covenants are land covenants which promise the land to the descendants of Abraham. This will be fulfilled at the Lord's return.
And the Davidic covenant establishes that the Messiah would come from the line of David and would establish a kingdom from which He would rule. What is the Davidic covenant?
Now currently, Jesus is in Heaven and seated at the right hand of the throne of God. But He will return to the earth where He will establish a kingdom on earth.
Resurrected humanity will be able to go anywhere in the universe that they want to. But they will live on the earth and the church will live in the New Jerusalem which will be suspended above the earth.
When Christ comes, his throne should now be on earth, not in heaven. Again you quote a scripture, interprete it, but you have not fully understood the context of the sripture.
The issue is not our ability to quote scripture. Scripture can be quoted to justify so many positions, but one of these have got to be the right one and the one with a clear reasoning.
The parable of the hoseholder in Mathew 21:33-40 is the final "medication" I would recommend to you. If you read that and keep to your line of argument, I raise my hand...good luck.
If this is all you can do why do you bother posting?
I just find it weird that one day you slam traditional Christianity, and the next day you defend it. Whatever suits to mood I guess. You seem happy as long as you get to disagree and pick a fight. You hijacked this thread, because of your need to disagree.
I just find it weird that one day you slam traditional Christianity, and the next day you defend it. Whatever suits to mood I guess. You seem happy as long as you get to disagree and pick a fight. You hijacked this thread, because of your need to disagree.
You confuse disagreeing with certain conservative Christians with "slamming" traditional Christianity.The two are not the same.And spare me your angst over me questioning dispensationalism in a thread about a dispensationalism event,especially after Mike made the original statement that the only proper way to take the Bible is dispensationally.He opened the door,many times.here are but 2 of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555
And no one who rejects the reality of the dispensational nature of God's plan will ever be able to properly orient themselves with regard to that plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike 555
Apart from a dispensational understanding of the word of God you can only go astray in your understanding of God's plan.
And YOU routinely invade threads with totally unrelated posts trying to turn them into arguments over UR.You have even been deleted from them.So go whine somewhere else.I don't buy it.
Well,got to head out to watch the Rangers play.I'll wave at ya'll out there in TV land.
Last edited by lifertexan; 08-10-2010 at 04:09 PM..
a) You were created on earth. Satan caused an upset and Jesus coming was a way to recover from the upset. The final recovery has not happened and yet we are set to fly up to heaven? Why would you be taken up to the heavens? Is God not smart enough to destroy the bad and keep the good in his own world?
Look at Jesus' promise in John 14:1-3
John the Baptist spoke of Christ as the bridegroom in bearing witness of Him: John 3:28-30
The Bridegroom has to come for the chaste bride first.
The fact that there are foolish virgins being left behind proves that judgment has to fall on the House of God first to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake.
Those foolish virgins will have oil in their lamps and shining finally to bear witness of the Son in seeking His glory Whose name is above every other name and no other name is to be exlated with His.
This will signal the times of the Gentiles coming to an end where the despensation of the Gospel will go back to the Jews, the 144,000 that will be witnesses for duing the great tribulation..
Quote:
b) Thesalonians 4, taklked about the "air". Being with the Lord forver in the air. So we would be with him forever in heaven? Why create you on earth? Unless of course the interpretation of air is wrong... and I know it is.
Why prepare a place for His disciples, the elect, in His Father's mansion?
Quote:
c) The rapture crowd does not take into consideration the fact that Christ coming was for the manifestation of his father's kingdom on EARTH! The kingdom is already known in the heavens and in all spiritual planes, but not manifested on earth. It will defeat the essence of shedding his blood if for some reason, true believers need to escape the world into heaven due to the tribulation... even as Christ assured that "for the sake of the elects those days shall be shortened". How does that jive with believers escaping to the sky from tribulation?
Because of the falling away from the faith, and because of false prophets, only a few will find that faith: so there will be many that be left behind at the pre tribulational rapture event which is the judgment on the House of God first.
Quote:
d) Christ words that the righteous will see God and inherit the earth, will have been in vain if they have to go to heaven to be under Christs protection. But we know that the bible states that they shall overcome by the blood of the lamb, not by escaping to heaven.
That is the assurance for those left behind where and how the vessels unto dishonour will still bring glory to God in Jesus Christ for salvation.
If Jesus comes back with the saints at the end of the great tribulation to do battle at the valley of Armegeddon to defeat Satan's armies: then who are the saints that have been resurrected after Satan's defeat? Those resurrected in what is called the first resurrection in Revelation are the ones described as coming out of the great tribulation in regards to the mark of the beast. So then whom were the saints that cem back with Jesus before Satan's armies were defeated?
The conundrum is solved when the use of the terms first is applied to the particular harvest as the first resurrection in Revelation was actually pertaining to the second harvest: not the first one. If one takes into the fact that the term last days as promised by Jesus can only be applied to which harvest the believer is qualified for.
The first can have disqualified believers being rejected of the first inheritance, but God chastens every child He receives and so those that did not wish to be His disciples will know what it means to not heed His words and love Him as the Bridegroom by not chasing after another suitor like the "Holy Spirit as if they had not received Him yet or can be received again and again and again which is a departire from the faith and a lie.
2 Corinthians 13:5Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
Many are called but few are chosen. I can either be fearful or place my trust in the Lord to be My Good Shepherd as my eyes are on Jesus Christ to keep me from falling and to present me faultless to His glory. Amen.
The pre trib rapture has to come for God to receive the chaste bride to the pace He prepared for her as the traditional Jewish honeymoon is 7 weeks so Jesus referring to that symbolism shows a honeymoon of seven years outside the great tribulation.
The illusion here is that many thinks the whole church will be taken out, but God warned the churches in the beginning of Revelation 2nd chapter to 3rd chapter that if they do not take heed to His corrections and exhortations, they could be cast into the bed of the great tribulation, thus not escaping the hour of trail that shall try all upon the earth and Jesus ends it by exhorting all believers to be zealous and repent.
Judgment has to fall on the House of God first. The pre tribulational rapture has to come to receive the chaste brode and to restore the wayward to the path of righteousness for His name's sake for the foolisg virgisn and the prodigal sons have been bought with a price and sealed as His and that is why the prodigal sons will be returning because they are still sons... thanks to the glory of God in salvation which is found in Jesus Christ as Jesus will finish what He has started in them, even for those left behind.
The thread is an interesting one albeit controversial. However, there are diferent understandings and it is funny that each claim to be from the Holy Spirit. It means that only one is right and the right one is probably the spirit led interpretation.
I still have posers for the raprure crowd.
a) You were created on earth. Satan caused an upset and Jesus coming was a way to recover from the upset. The final recovery has not happened and yet we are set to fly up to heaven? Why would you be taken up to the heavens? Is God not smart enough to destroy the bad and keep the good in his own world?
b) Thesalonians 4, taklked about the "air". Being with the Lord forver in the air. So we would be with him forever in heaven? Why create you on earth? Unless of course the interpretation of air is wrong... and I know it is.
c) The rapture crowd does not take into consideration the fact that Christ coming was for the manifestation of his father's kingdom on EARTH! The kingdom is already known in the heavens and in all spiritual planes, but not manifested on earth. It will defeat the essence of shedding his blood if for some reason, true believers need to escape the world into heaven due to the tribulation... even as Christ assured that "for the sake of the elects those days shall be shortened". How does that jive with believers escaping to the sky from tribulation?
d) Christ words that the righteous will see God and inherit the earth, will have been in vain if they have to go to heaven to be under Christs protection. But we know that the bible states that they shall overcome by the blood of the lamb, not by escaping to heaven.
Now let me examine some of Mike's faulty interpretation:
1) The issue of the air has been trashed. If the air is talking about heaven, then that sentence shall read: ''Then we who are alive and remain (on the earth) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (heaven), and thus we shall always be with the Lord (in heaven).
But this would be contrary to the expectation of even Christ for the kingdom to manifest on earth. Who will you believe Jeuss'words or Mike's interpretation? The air is the world, Mr. Mike.. capische?
2) Where is his Father's house? The whole creation is his Father's house. The spiritual, the spiritual, the universe, the sun, the moon, etc... By his ressurection he left to prepare a place for us... People imagine that the prepared place will not be on earth because he said in his father's house. Please read Dan 2:44. The kingdom of God must be esablished on earth by God himself and it shall overcome and put down all other kingdoms of this world (Luke13:24-30). He will come again to the world to receive the faithful in the kingdom. It is only those that are practising his will that will be saved in any destruction that will come. That is why it is said in luke :
..Those my enemies who will not that I rule over them, bring them hither and slay them before me.
Now all these references to 7 years etc are all inaccurate. I believe that when he comes, it will be forever. The 1000 year reign would have happened in the spirit realm. Once he appears he is meant to rule forever and ever without interruptions.
Isaiah 45:18-25 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the EARTH and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it TO BE INHABITED: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
19 I have not spoken in secret, in a dark place of the earth: I said not unto the seed of Jacob (the 12 tribes...US), Seek ye me in vain: I the LORD speak righteousness, I declare things that are right.
20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time: who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved (Jesus on the cross...Psalm 22:16), "ALL" the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else.
23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
24 Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and ALL that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.
Mike555,
I appreciate that you nor I can force anyone to believe anything. However, simple verses are still the truth.
John 3:36 is the truth no matter how many UR'ers explain it away or tell me that because of the greek there is a better way to translate it. If that is how the response, it's useless to converse because they don't have any intention to listen or substantive to offer. They way I read it is that to make such an response is an indication they are on the wrong side of the issue.
With all due respect, repeating the same dogma when I maintain scripture rejects certian aspects held by baptist theology and synergism is not going to change what the conservative Lutheran (and what historically has been taught) holds to be as correct.
These are simple truths: 1 Peter 3:21, Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, Jude 1:14-15. They are not conservative Lutheran property, or some complicated greek \ english translation. It's God's Word...either you accept them or complicate the meaning.
We both will not win souls over to Jesus by you proving the baptist theology and I the conservative Lutheran theology. We have other major responsibilities that should occupy our time. We need to concentrate on these messages
belief in Jesus
Jesus is the Godman and Savior
that God is triune
Jesus is the only way that a person can and will be saved"
This belief must be present prior to death in order to be saved
These simple truths is what the seperation of people will be based on at the Judgement.
Twin
Last edited by twin.spin; 08-10-2010 at 05:37 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
