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Dispensationalism is a theological system that teaches biblical history is best understood in light of a number of successive administrations of God's dealings with mankind, which it calls "dispensations." It maintains fundamental distinctions between God's plans for national Israel and for the New Testament Church, and emphasizes prophecy of the end-times and a pre-tribulation rapture of the church prior to Christ's Second Coming. Its beginnings are usually associated with the Plymouth Brethren movement in the UK and the teachings of John Nelson Darby.
The Plymouth Brethren movement, basically a reaction against the established church in England and its ecclesiology, became known for its anti-denominational, anti-clerical, and anti-credal stance. While theologically orthodox, the Plymouth Brethren (Darby in particular) developed unique ideas regarding the interpretation of Scripture while emphasizing prophecy and the second coming of Christ. The theology of this movement became known as "Dispensationalism."
This new teaching spread in America through prophecy conferences such as the Niagara Bible Conferences (1883-1897). James H. Brookes (1830-1898), a pastor in St. Louis and prominent figure in the Niagara Conferences, disseminated dispensationalist ideas through his ministry and publications.
Believe what you will.Dispensationalism is the creation of Darby,and has been thoroughly documented as such.It is understandable that it's adherents resent it being labeled as something created by man,but that does not change facts.Dispensationalism is an idea developed by man.
No,you just got through presenting passages YOU think are examples of literal vs allegorical.I am asking on what basis YOU decided this was so.As I pointed out,most of Christianity disagrees with you on substantiation.They would point out that when people called Christ crazy for suggesting people eat His flesh that He did not correct them and point out it was allegorical,but He repeated His claim again.He even allowed disciples to leave Him over the matter and did not,evidently,correct the issue in their minds to keep them from leaving.So your claims about substantiation can be said to be without merit if Christ responded this way in dealing with those who didn't understand what He was saying.But this is my point.People have different ideas of what is literal and what is allegorical.Yours is but one of those opinions,based on the theology your hold when making your judgement.There is no infallible guidebook that tells us plainly what is to be taken literally and what is allegorical.
The same could be said of the issue of women in the church.Almost NO evangelical church holds to a literal view of what Paul said about women in the church.They would not have many women members if they did.
No. As a matter of fact one of the passages as I already mentioned, SAID it was allegorical. When something is clearly literal then that's how it is to be taken. My opinion has nothing to do with it. Allegory refers to symbolism. Symbolism is easy to see.
No. Most of Christianity does not view transubstaniation as valid. It is the Roman Catholic church which holds that belief. Not Christianity. The wine and the bread are not transformed into the literal flesh and blood of Christ which is then eaten and drank of. Christianity has nothing to do with cannibalism. Transubstaniation is one of the Roman Catholic traditions that is in direct contradiction of the word of God.
No. As a matter of fact one of the passages as I already mentioned, SAID it was allegorical. When something is clearly literal then that's how it is to be taken. My opinion has nothing to do with it. Allegory refers to symbolism. Symbolism is easy to see.
No. Most of Christianity does not view transubstaniation as valid. It is the Roman Catholic church which holds that belief. Not Christianity. The wine and the bread are not transformed into the literal flesh and blood of Christ which is then eaten and drank of. Christianity has nothing to do with cannibalism. Transubstaniation is one of the Roman Catholic traditions that is in direct contradiction of the word of God.
Actually you are wrong.Transubstantiation was THE belief of the original church.Eastern Orthodox,Oriental Orthodox,Anglicans,and Catholics still believe in it.Together they make up the majority of Christianity on the earth,numbering almost twice the number of Protestants..Lutherans believe in a modified form of it called co-substantiation.I personally do not believe in it,but that does not change the fact that most Christians DO.
Regardless,the point is that these groups are just as capable of claiming you are not taking the Bible literally as you like to do to others.Like I said,what is and is not literal is always just the opinion of people.Including yours.
Ans good point ---- How do pre-trib rapturist get around Matt 24:29-31 which states that after the tribulation the elect are gathered from the four winds?
Matthew 24:31 refers to the Jews who will be gathered from around the world at the beginning of the Millennium back to Israel. Just as the church has its election, so also, Israel has an election. Though there is currently a nation Israel with some Jews back in the land in a state of unbelief, it will be when Christ returns that all the Jews will be regathered in belief that Jesus is the Messiah.
Matthew 24:31 refers to the Jews who will be gathered from around the world at the beginning of the Millennium back to Israel. Just as the church has its election, so also, Israel has an election. Though there is currently a nation Israel with some Jews back in the land in a state of unbelief, it will be when Christ returns that all the Jews will be regathered in belief that Jesus is the Messiah.
Sorry,but traditional Christianity understands the elect to refer to Christians.To make it refer to a select group of Jews probably borders on heresy.
Mat 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Mat 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Rom 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Strong's definition of elect
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual Christians
Matthew 24:22 clearly says that the elect WILL suffer through the greatest tribulation ever known to man.So unless the GREAT Tribulation isn't the greatest tribulation ever known to man,Christians will go through it,according to the literal interpretation of scripture.
Last edited by lifertexan; 08-08-2010 at 07:11 PM..
My view is that the rapture doctrine came into vogue in the 1800's and has ties to the Scofield reference (a bible with commentary in the margins - which I think is a no-no).
Also, it doesn't matter whether or not there is any pre-tribulation rapture or not - that has nothing to do with knowing God. We should be ready to endure tribulation whenever and wherever it comes to us. I think it is deceptive or at least presumtuous to teach people that they will not suffer in this world.
No one has said that Christians don't suffer in this world. But no Christian will go through the seven year period of the Tribulation. During that time frame, the church will be in heaven undergoing the Bema seat judgment and the marriage of the Lamb (Jesus). The rapture (not by that term) is plainly taught in the Bible. During the dark ages many doctrines were neglected or lost, and began to be recovered with the reformation.
The rapture is a part of the word of God. Therefore, being clear on the rapture is a part of knowing about God and His plan. It doesn't affect your salvation, but God expects believers to understand the entire realm of Bible doctrine. That includes eschatology. One comes to a knowledge of God by learning what He has communicated to man through His written word.
You have again posted some great things here Mike. Yes there will a rapture and when we're gone those left behind posting on City Data can start a thread about it
This proves nothing. Context is key here and Paul seemed to be addressing his contemporaries so as to encourage them that they hadn't missed something. I believe it was nothing more than a spiritual pep talk and it's quite a stretch to apply this to the present or future. Like I said, I need further study on this but I think this is sorely misunderstood by the dispensationalists. I think, of all things, I may be leaning towards a preterist mindset. And 1 Corinthians 15 has even less to do with a rapture.
Yes, context is key, and the context is rapture. Paul is talking to people who thought their deceased loved ones were going to miss the rapture, and he tells them that the dead too will be raptured. He even repeats the order of the raputure: dead first, then the living. You can cross check that with the rest of the Bible and learn that it is accurate.
Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
I'm waiting for the response to Mt 24 where it pretty plainly describes Christians going through tribulation greater than anything ever in the world before or after.
The church is not found in Matthew 24. It is about Israel during the tribulation. Not the church.
For those who will bother to take a look, this is fully explained at the following resource...
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And not limited to religion or race, but from the four corners of the earth Revelation 7. I believe that the 12 tribes are "NOW" us!
