Are denominations in keeping with god’s will? (Mormon, prayers, disciples)

[Katzpur]

Twin.spin, thank you for what appears to be a sincere attempt to actually clarify your position. I hope we can actually make some headway in understanding each other from this point forward. I don't expect either one of us to change our position, but to possibly come to realize that both of us provide evidence to support our beliefs by an appeal to the Bible.

Originally Posted by twin.spin

I'm not going to defend what is taught a fact ... fact that goes beyond human comprehension.

Biblical scrptures that teach a triune God.

Could you define the word "triune" please? I agree that the Bible does teach that there is a Godhead comprised of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I do not deny that. As a matter of fact, I believe it with all my heart. What I don't believe is that they are all part of one "substance." If you believe they are, could you also explain what you believe the word "substance" means.

ONE GOD (SINGULAR): [there is no other God or god] God was never a man nor any man can become a god.

I see this as drifting off topic to some extent, but I'll respond to it anyway.

There is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:

In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.” He also posed this question: “Do we cast blame on Him (God) because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and than later as Gods?” At about the same period of time, Saint Clement made this statement: “The Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god.” And Saint Justin Martyr agreed, saying that men are “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.” Some two centuries later, Athanasius explained that “the Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods. He became man that we might be made divine.” And, finally, Augustine, said, “But He that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. For he has given them power to become the sons of God. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”

Deuteronomy 4:35

“You were shown these things so that you might know that the LORD is God; besides him there is no other."

And yet Deuteronomy 10:17 states, "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward…" Is He the God of false gods? Is He is God of non-existant Gods?

1 Kings 8:16

Isaiah 44:8
Isaiah 45:5,6,14,18
Isaiah 45:22
Isaiah 46:9
Joel 2:27
Mark 12:32
Acts 4:12

I'll get back to you on these. I'm going to have to look each of them up in order to comment.

SINGULAR GOD, PLURAL REFERANCE TO HIMSELF

Genesis 1:26 in which God says "Let us make man in our own image"
Genesis 3:22 in which God says, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 11:7 in which God says, "Let us go down and confuse their language."
Isaiah 6:8 in which God says, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"

I'm not sure I agree that it is a plural reference to Himself. I believe it is God the Father speaking and that He is speaking to His Son, Jesus Christ.

Conclusion:

Each time using the singular (because there is just one God) and the plural (because there are 3 persons) interchangeably, clearly indicating that there is more than one person in God.

Okay, here's our point of real disagreement. Let me try to explain my perspective. I'm not asking you to agree with me, but I would appreciate it very much if you would at least try to understand what I'm saying and realize that, even if you don't agree with it, it does make sense.

(1) The word "God" is a title which we use to refer to and address the supreme being. More than one person can share a single title. I know you believe this because you believe "the Father is God" and "the Son is God."

(2) The word "God" is a synomyn for "Godhead." (Check any dictionary to confirm that.) So I can say either, "I believe in only one God," or "I believe in only one Godhead." Either one is correct, provided we recognize the fact explained as point #3.

(3) The word "Godhead" is a collective noun. Other examples of collective nouns are audience, committee, crowd, flock, jury, and orchestra. When we refer to "the jury," we are speaking of one entity, but know that this one entity is made up of twelve distinct members. Likewise, when Mormons speak of God, they are speaking of one entity but know that this entity is made up of three distinct members.

I believe you would go along with point #3, except that, if I understand correctly, you believe that the three members who make up God are not physically distinct from one another.

Closest word for "Trinity" in the Bible:
Colossians 2:9 “For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,”

The KVJ says, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

I believe the closest word to "Trinity" in the Bible is "Godhead." Deity simply refers to divine nature, not to number or relationship.

Is Jesus God?

“Turn and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other” Isaiah 45:22

“Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” (Peter’s witness of Jesus) Acts 4:12

Okay, we appear to agree on this point. Mormons believe that Jesus Christ is God. We just don't believe He is God the Father.

There are three lines of evidence that run throughout Scripture that teach the Trinity. First, the Bible uniformly teaches that there is only one God (see, for example, Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 44:6; 1 Timothy 2:5). Therefore, to say that the three Persons of the Trinity must be understood as three separate gods would be contradictory to what the Bible clearly states. There is only one God.

They are not separate in any way except the physical. The are united in will, spirit, mind and heart to such a perfect, absolute, and infinite degree that we cannot possibly comprehend such unity. But when Jesus Christ was on earth, His Father was in Heaven. If they were not separate individuals, this would have been impossible.

The Bible calls three Persons God. These three Persons are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and each one of them bears the name of God in the Scriptures: Father (1 Peter 1:2); Son (John 20:28); Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3,4). What's more, the Bible attributes divine qualities to all three Persons of the Trinity.

Agreed.

So far what we have is one God in three Persons. And that's the third line of evidence from Scripture: the three-in-one (triune) essence of the true God is consistent with the way the Bible speaks about God. It can be seen, for instance, in passages like Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14.

I understand what you're saying and you've done a good job supporting your position. My only disagreement with what you have said is that I believe the three persons are physically distinct from one another and not part of a single substance.

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Could you define the word "triune" please?

Definition and the relationship

Originally Posted by Katzpur

There is considerable evidence that the doctrine of deification was taught for quite some time after the Savior’s death, and accepted as orthodox. Some of the most well-known and respected of the early Christian Fathers made statements that were remarkably close to the statements LDS leaders have made. For example:

In the second century, Saint Irenaeus said, “If the Word became a man, it was so men may become gods.”

If he said this, he was wrong as wrong could get.

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I understand what you're saying and you've done a good job supporting your position. My only disagreement with what you have said is that I believe the three persons are physically distinct from one another and not part of a single substance.

I appreciate that... that is a big difference. For that is defining who God is and isn't. To incorrectly believe who God is, is to believe in a false God.

So as to stay within the OP ... this would prove why denominations are necessary.

[Dewdroplet76]

Well - to really get back to the OP - I think you could have 5 people read "Green Eggs and Ham" and all have a different opinion of it and take something different away from it. And that is Dr. Seuss! I really can't imagine the millions of Christians reading the same Bible and all thinking and feeling the exact same thing about it. We are all too different. I think - if there is a God - that he would understand that.
I know I'm not a Christian and my opinion doesn't really count to many of you - but I wish that you could all just accept the fact that you all aren't going to agree on everything because you all are just different people. I think a little respect and understanding can go a long way.

[Robert M Prince]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

So as to stay within the OP ... this would prove why denominations are necessary.

Originally Posted by Dewdrop93

Well - to really get back to the OP - I really can't imagine the millions of Christians reading the same Bible and all thinking and feeling the exact same thing about it. We are all too different. I think - if there is a God - that he would understand that.
I know I'm not a Christian and my opinion doesn't really count to many of you - but I wish that you could all just accept the fact that you all aren't going to agree on everything because you all are just different people. I think a little respect and understanding can go a long way.

Twin Spin, Somewhere I missed your point about denominations being necessary.
Dewdrop, I can understand why, as a non-Christian, you would believe that God would be understanding about divisions being normal since we are different people. But Jesus prayed to the Father that we should all be one, and I believe the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to admonish the Corinthians that we should have no divisions among us, that this represents the will of God.
So I would say to both of you that we MUST have the Holy Spirit if we have truly repented. Paul said that, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9.
If we have truly repented and have the Spirit of Christ, then our primary desire in life is to do the will of God. And if that is true then we will KNOW of the doctrine whether it is of God or of man (see John 7:17.) It is impossible to have no divisions among us UNLESS we have the Holy ?Spirit to guide us. We cannot do this in our fleshly nature.

Best wishes in our search for truth.
Bob

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Robert M Prince

Twin Spin, Somewhere I missed your point about denominations being necessary.
So I would say to both of you that we MUST have the Holy Spirit if we have truly repented. Paul said that, "If any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." Romans 8:9.
If we have truly repented and have the Spirit of Christ, then our primary desire in life is to do the will of God. And if that is true then we will KNOW of the doctrine whether it is of God or of man (see John 7:17.) It is impossible to have no divisions among us UNLESS we have the Holy ?Spirit to guide us. We cannot do this in our fleshly nature.

Best wishes in our search for truth.
Bob

Bob,
The reason should be evident just from the variety here. How should I phrase it....most of your [what I italicized] is so vague and water downed that it can mean just about anything to anyone. But that is what non-denominational crowd preferes...little doctrine but broad appeal. Which that isn't God's will.

[Robert M Prince]

Originally Posted by twin.spin

Bob,
The reason should be evident just from the variety here. How should I phrase it....most of your [what I italicized] is so vague and water downed that it can mean just about anything to anyone. But that is what non-denominational crowd preferes...little doctrine but broad appeal. Which that isn't God's will.

Twin.Spin,
Please review the document below which opened this thread. I have underlined some items which could be considered VERY specific doctrines in a non-denominational document.
It is my opinion that the most dangerous denominational doctrine is the
VERY broad misconception that if a person believes in Jesus Christ as his personal saviour, he is saved from all his sins, past, present and future, that he does not have to keep the commandments of our Lord and Saviour, and that he cannot lose his salvation. If we have truly believed that Jesus is the Son of God, we will truly repent and be fully committed to DOING the will of God. How specific can we get?
Best wishes. I look forward to your review!

ARE DENOMINATIONS IN KEEPING WITH GOD’S WILL?
Many people in our day are convinced that, “If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and accept Him as your personal Savior, you are saved, and that there is nothing you can do to cause you to lose that salvation.”
But our Savior Himself made high expectations of those who would be His true followers. In the 14th chapter of John, He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments,” also “Whosoever forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple,” Luke 14:33. In Acts chapter 5, St. Peter said that God gives the Holy Ghost to “them that OBEY Him.” So we must repent and have a mind to obey Christ if we are to receive His Holy Spirit, and I believe that Spirit gives us the power to resist committing willful sins. We know that we are prone to make mistakes every day, but that, “If we confess our sins , he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” I John 1:10.
St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians “That ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment,” I Cor 1:10. Now we know that Jesus told His Apostles, “He that heareth you heareth me, and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me” Luke 10:16. He also said, “He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me, and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me,” John 13:20. Also we know that Jesus personally struck Paul down on the road to Damascus and that St. Paul declared his credentials in several of his epistles that he was called of Christ Jesus to be an Apostle.
Jesus also prayed to his Father in John 17:11, that his followers should be one as He and the Father were one.
So if we are to be obedient to Christ and also to take heed to all the admonitions of His Apostles, it seems like an impossible task. But if we truly have the Holy Spirit, then He does the work in us, and we have nothing of which we can boast. According to Jesus, ”When ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do,” Luke 17:10.
Does it make any sense that denominational differences are looked upon as being perfectly normal in our day, with people generally believing that almost all "conventional denominations” are branches of the Christian church and that all who have accepted Jesus Christ as their “personal” Savior are assured of going to heaven when they die.
Do we really believe that our all-wise, all-powerful Father in heaven looks down on this earth and approves of all those who claim to have been called of Him to preach the Gospel, even though they are often preaching things that are exactly opposite of what others are preaching.
I personally believe that Jesus gave the perfect formula for solving this gross confusion when he said in John 7:17 that, “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” I believe that if we have truly repented and pray earnestly for Christ and His Father to show us any area of our life where we are not doing His will, they will show this to us and give us the Holy Spirit. That Spirit will make it possible for us to be obedient to them, which is impossible for us to do if we have a carnal mind. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” Romans 8:7-9.
Jonathan Edwards wrote in 1851, “I am come now to the last distinguishing mark of holy affections that I shall mention: XII. Gracious and holy affections have their exercise and fruit in Christian practice. . . John 15:14, ‘Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.’. . If the old nature be indeed mortified, and a new and heavenly nature infused, then may it well be expected, that men will walk in newness of life, and continue to do so to the end of their days. . . Some may be ready to object against what has been said of Christian practice being the chief evidence of the truth of grace, that this is a legal doctrine, and that this making practice a thing of such great importance in religion, magnifies works, and tends to lead men to make too much of their own doings, to the diminution of the glory of free grace, and does not seem well to consist with the great gospel doctrine of justification by faith alone. It is our works being the price of God’s favor, and not their being the sign of it, that is the thing which is inconsistent with the freeness of that favor. . . It is not the worthiness or loveliness of our works, or anything in us, which is in any wise accepted with God, as a balance for the guilt of sin. Thus we are justified only by the righteousness of Christ, and not by our righteousness.” (A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections; Worcester edition.)
We know that Jesus said, “Not everyone that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father in heaven” Matt. 7:21. .Jesus made it perfectly clear that, “He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings” John 14:21 & 24. And as we said, He told His Apostles that if we hear them we hear Christ Himself, so we are expected to have no divisions among us, as St. Paul admonished the Corinthians.
We certainly acknowledge that Christ has had true disciples in all ages of time since His crucifixion and resurrection, but I believe that, as the time of His return to earth draws nearer, He is calling for those who have truly repented and whose primary goal in life is to do God’s will, that we lay down our denominational differences and follow Him. I believe we should be careful not to judge others too harshly, since they must answer to their maker and not to us. But I firmly believe that if we are truly doing His will, Jesus promised us, “We SHALL KNOW of the doctrine whether it be of God" or whether we speak of ourselves.
If the reader sees anything in this document that is not backed up by scripture, you would do me a favor by bringing it to my attention.

Bob Prince
May 5, 2010

[twin.spin]

Originally Posted by Robert M Prince

Twin.Spin,

It is my opinion that the most dangerous denominational doctrine is the
VERY broad misconception that if a person believes in Jesus Christ as his personal saviour, he is saved from all his sins, past, present and future, that he does not have to keep the commandments of our Lord and Saviour, and that he cannot lose his salvation. If we have truly believed that Jesus is the Son of God, we will truly repent and be fully committed to DOING the will of God. How specific can we get?
Best wishes. I look forward to your review!

If the reader sees anything in this document that is not backed up by scripture, you would do me a favor by bringing it to my attention.

Bob Prince
May 5, 2010

Not backed by scripture:

• "misconception that if a person believes in Jesus Christ as his personal saviour, he is saved from all his sins, past, present and future"
  • Psalm 103:2-3
• "that he does not have to keep the commandments of our Lord and Saviour"
  • [depends on whom the audience is]

[scgraham]

Originally Posted by Robert M Prince

It is my opinion that the most dangerous denominational doctrine is the
VERY broad misconception that if a person believes in Jesus Christ as his personal saviour, he is saved from all his sins, past, present and future, that he does not have to keep the commandments of our Lord and Saviour, and that he cannot lose his salvation. If we have truly believed that Jesus is the Son of God, we will truly repent and be fully committed to DOING the will of God. How specific can we get?

Willful sin will cause the Spirit of grace to lift from a person; they become backsliders, the children of hell again. They must repent with godly sorrow, and be determined to completely forsake all sin. If not, they will go to hell in that condition. "Once saved always saved" is a damnable doctrine. One must be holy to belong to the Lord; there's no other way.

[Dewdroplet76]

Well, I guess it seems that whether or not denominations are in keeping with God's will - things aren't going to change. I can't ever see all Christians agreeing on everything. To be perfectly honest - I think that is completely impossible. And not just because they are Christians - I think it is impossible to get any large group of people to completely agree on anything. If God exists - why would he have made us all so different if we were all supposed to think exactly the same thing? If God wanted us all to believe exactly the same thing - he would have created human beings that were more like robots. How boring would that be? I think that, if there is a God, he appreciates all of our differences. I think that maybe we should try doing the same thing!

[Verna Perry]

Originally Posted by Robert M Prince

Twin.Spin,
Please review the document below...I have underlined...VERY specific doctrines...It is my opinion that the most dangerous denominational doctrine is the...misconception that...he does not have to keep the commandments of our Lord and Saviour...If we truly believed that Jesus is the Son of God, we will truly repent and be fully committed to DOING the will of God. How specific can we get?.....

.......But our Savior Himself made high expectations of those who would be His true followers. In the 14th chapter of John, He said, “If ye love me, keep my commandments,” also “Whosoever forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple,” Luke 14:33. In Acts chapter 5, St. Peter said that God gives the Holy Ghost to “them that OBEY Him.” So we must repent and have a mind to obey Christ if we are to receive His Holy Spirit, and I believe that Spirit gives us the power to resist committing willful sins...St. Paul wrote to the Corinthians “That ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment,” I Cor 1:10. Now we know that Jesus told His Apostles, “He that heareth you heareth me, and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me” Luke 10:16. He also said, “He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me, and he that receiveth me, receiveth him that sent me,” John 13:20...So if we are to be obedient to Christ and also to take heed to all the admonitions of His Apostles, it seems like an impossible task. But if we truly have the Holy Spirit, then He does the work in us, and we have nothing of which we can boast. According to Jesus, ”When ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do,” Luke 17:10...

...Do we really believe that our all-wise, all-powerful Father in heaven looks down on this earth and approves of all those who claim to have been called of Him to preach the Gospel, even though they are often preaching things that are exactly opposite of what others are preaching.
I personally believe that Jesus gave the perfect formula for solving this gross confusion when he said in John 7:17 that, “If any man will do His will, he shall know of the doctrine whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.” I believe that if we have truly repented and pray earnestly for Christ and His Father to show us any area of our life where we are not doing His will, they will show this to us and give us the Holy Spirit. That Spirit will make it possible for us to be obedient to them, which is impossible for us to do if we have a carnal mind. “Because the carnal mind is enmity against God for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” Romans 8:7-9.
Jonathan Edwards wrote in 1851, “I am come now to the last distinguishing mark of holy affections that I shall mention: XII. Gracious and holy affections have their exercise and fruit in Christian practice. . . John 15:14, ‘Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.’. . If the old nature be indeed mortified, and a new and heavenly nature infused, then may it well be expected, that men will walk in newness of life, and continue to do so to the end of their days. . . Some may be ready to object against what has been said of Christian practice being the chief evidence of the truth of grace, that this is a legal doctrine, and that this making practice a thing of such great importance in religion, magnifies works, and tends to lead men to make too much of their own doings, to the diminution of the glory of free grace, and does not seem well to consist with the great gospel doctrine of justification by faith alone. It is our works being the price of God’s favor, and not their being the sign of it, that is the thing which is inconsistent with the freeness of that favor. . . It is not the worthiness or loveliness of our works, or anything in us, which is in any wise accepted with God, as a balance for the guilt of sin. Thus we are justified only by the righteousness of Christ, and not by our righteousness.” (A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections; Worcester edition.)
We know that Jesus said, “Not everyone that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father in heaven” Matt. 7:21. .Jesus made it perfectly clear that, “He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me; and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings” John 14:21 & 24. And as we said, He told His Apostles that if we hear them we hear Christ Himself, so we are expected to have no divisions among us, as St. Paul admonished the Corinthians.
We certainly acknowledge that Christ has had true disciples in all ages of time since His crucifixion and resurrection, but I believe that, as the time of His return to earth draws nearer, He is calling for those who have truly repented and whose primary goal in life is to do God’s will, that we lay down our denominational differences and follow Him. I believe we should be careful not to judge others too harshly, since they must answer to their maker and not to us. But I firmly believe that if we are truly doing His will, Jesus promised us, “We SHALL KNOW of the doctrine whether it be of God" or whether we speak of ourselves.
If the reader sees anything in this document that is not backed up by scripture, you would do me a favor by bringing it to my attention.

Bob Prince
May 5, 2010

This reader sees a lot in this document of yours that is not back up!....not by Scripture though!...but by you!...Everything I quoted of your post above is the perfect Word of God...and it is the Truth!...However, You do not live it!.

There is a word that describes this...and the word is hypocracy!...say one thing...do another..?

You even claim truthfully that God's Word does not contradict Himself...yet...you teach the highest form of contradiction!

Originally Posted by scgraham

Willful sin will cause the Spirit of grace to lift from a person; they become backsliders, the children of hell again. They must repent with godly sorrow, and be determined to completely forsake all sin. If not, they will go to hell in that condition. "Once saved always saved" is a damnable doctrine. One must be holy to belong to the Lord; there's no other way.

...and here is yet another example of hypocracy...you teach it but you don't believe it enough to live it!


Unbelievable. Seriously.