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Clement of Rome (A.D. 30-97)
Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-108)
Polycarp of Smyrna (A.D. 69-155)
Papias of Hierapolis (A.D. 70-163)
None of the above Fathers ever mentioned hell or everlasting Torment. @ clement was not Written by Clement of Rome(FACT), and the language used by Ignatius concerning judgment was the very same language used by the New testament, he speaks of the "aionios pyr", or the fire pertaining to the ages, which is wrongly translated as Eternal Fire English ...
Answer the question, both of you.....why did Paul urge his listeners to BE RECONCILED TO GOD, if they were already reconciled as you propose?
2 Corinthians 5:19
"that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation."
Rom 5:10
For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
Do the above scriptures contradict 2Cr 5:20? Is it God that reconciles man to himself while they were enemies, or is it mankind that must reconcile themselves to God?
These scriptures do not contradict one another, it is simply another case of the meaning being lost in translation.
Paul is not telling the Corinthians, who are already believers, to reconcile themselves to God. He is telling them they have been reconciled to God, meaning God has already made peace with mankind at the cross even while mankind was at enmity with God. And he is exhorting them to be at peace with one another(they were taking each other to court and infighting in the public eye) as God had already made peace with all mankind. Paul is not saying man has to reconcile themselves, he is saying that they need to act as if they are reconciled by being at peace with one another, because if you are not at peace with your brothers and sisters, then you are not at peace with God, even though he is already at peace with you.
The word translated as "be ye reconciled" is "katallagEte" ... Which literally means "be ye being conciliated", or "act as if you have been reconciled", or "realize that you have been reconciled", one who recognizes in thryth that they have been reconciled will be at peace with his brothers and sisters, and even his enemies ...
Here is the Interlinear ...
Quote:
katallaghte
katallagEte
G2644
vm 2Aor Pas 2 Pl
BE-BEING-conciliatED
be-ye-being-conciliated !
Notice this word is in the aorist past tense, and is not future or present tense. So this word cannot mean something that will be done or should be done, but is referring to something that has been done that needs to be recognized.
Peace ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-19-2010 at 11:14 AM..
Clement of Rome (A.D. 30-97)
Ignatius of Antioch (A.D. 35-108)
Polycarp of Smyrna (A.D. 69-155)
Papias of Hierapolis (A.D. 70-163)
None of the aboveFathers ever mentioned hell or everlasting Torment. @ clement was not Written by Clement of Rome(FACT), and the language used by Ignatius concerning judgment was the very same language used by the New testament, he speaks of the "aionios pyr", or the fire pertaining to the ages, which is wrongly translated as Eternal Fire English ...
I didn't see where he was stating they did. He mentioned that they did NOT believe in an immortal soul, which of course is what you HAVE to believe to come up withh either UR,,,or ET.
Annihilation, or death of the soul is what they preached. The soul IS NOT immortal, and it only get life from Jesus who GAVE life, to the lost. Only God is immortal. 1st Tim 6:16
I answered your question. Satan is gone...out of the picture...no more access to God to accuse the saints....Heaven is reconciled.
Do you read the posts, or do you just argue against them without knowing what you actually read?
It is not heaven that needs to be reconciled, it is "things in heaven". And the word reconciled means to be at peace. So there are things in heaven which are not at peace with God, and God reconciles those things, meaning he makes peace with them. It does not mean he destroys them forever or cast them our for ever. Your understanding is flawed.
I didn't see where he was stating they did. He mentioned that they did NOT believe in an immortal soul, which of course is what you HAVE to believe to come up withh either UR,,,or ET.
Annihilation, or death of the soul is what they preached. The soul IS NOT immortal, and it only get life from Jesus who GAVE life, to the lost. Only God is immortal. 1st Tim 6:16
No they never mention annihilation either. And immortality of the soul is not necessary to believe in UR. The whole point of UR is that the wages of sin is death, and the soul that sins dies, it is not bound in hell to be tortured. Christ died to save the dying souls of wicked and ungodly men. That is the whole point ...
That is not to say that all who believe in UR do not believe in the immortality of the soul, but it is not necessary to believe in the immortality of the soul to believe in UR. As a matter of fact, fundamentalists who believe in ET are the ones who by necessity must believe in the immortality of the soul.
No they never mention annihilation either. And immortality of the soul is not necessary to believe in UR. The whole point of UR is that the wages of sin is death, and the soul that sins dies, it is not bound in hell to be tortured. Christ died to save the dying souls of wicked and ungodly men. That is the whole point ...
Did I say anything about being bound in hell to be tortured, or do you read what you choose to?
The wages of sin IS death, and without the LIFE GIVING BLOOD of the LAMB, and repentance, there IS NO LIFE, period.
Just death. Complete, and utter destruction.
Christ died for the lost SHEEP, only. He seeks HIS SHEEP, only. He leads, they follow.
Anything else, not a SHEEP of His, is gone, forever.
Quote:
the wages of sin is death, and the soul that sins dies,
We agree on something.
You either HAVE LIFE, or you ARE DEAD. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.
The whole point of UR is that the wages of sin is death, and the soul that sins dies
Finally...we agree on something other than the deity of Christ...and lately, some Preterist idealogies. The above is contradictory to the doctrine of apocatastasis.
Sciotamicks, I STILL don't understand why you want pagan fathers. The TRUTH was MIXED with paganism when Rome took over. Every ritual, eschatology, Greek hells, woman nestled in the cave, sun rays and halos, SUNDAY, December 25, Easter (Ishtar), immortal souls; NONE of this has anything to do with the TRUTH.
The system is BABYLON and sits on the kings of the earth. The beast has to take it down.
(Jesus speaking to Capernaum; IF Sodom had SEEN......she would still be standing. Jerusalem was standing. Full preterism is flawed, just like the rest of the system, and you are missing the point of scripture)
You really need to study Zoroastrianism, which was pre-Christ, and find out how all the old pagan religions were folded up into Christianity. The church of today is not Biblical. Not by a long shot.
Where is the Holy Spirit? Do you have it? I don't believe many church fathers did.
Pagan rituals and festivals were overthrown by the church, and was replaced with Christian memorials, a testament of Dan 2 and the religious power of it.
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