U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-15-2010, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,708 times
Reputation: 420

Advertisements

Again, I will restate my rebuttal more verbose:

ET was not created by Latin church fathers, like Tertullian and Augustine and post Nicene Council.
ET doctrine was created at the onset of Creation.

Now prove that it was, and wasn't.

Again, we are not looking for over-emotional responses and pagan philosophies. We want Biblical, Pseudepigrapha, Apocrypha, sacred writings, etc, that the people of the covenant and faith, that penned the two testaments, referred to and believed in, and related to, concerning this doctrine. We are also looking for any of the early church fathers, starting with the 1st Century AD. Please do not go off topic.

Thanks and God bless.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-15-2010, 03:37 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,557,049 times
Reputation: 598
Well,I'll start by simply repeating what you didn't respond to on the other thread.


In the first five or six centuries of Christian history, the majority of theological schools in the East taught Universalism. New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench - Zwingli | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The most important such school was the Didascalium in Alexandria, Egypt, which was founded by Saint Pantaenus ca. 190 C.E.Alexandria was the center of learning and intellectual discourse in the ancient Mediterranean world, and was the theological center of gravity of Christianity prior to the rise of the imperial Roman Church.Alexandrian Christianity emphasized apocatastasis and theosis as its main teachings.The Christian Universalist Association > History of Universalism

Saint Clement of Alexandria succeeded Pantaenus as the second head of the Didascalium in the late 2nd century. He was a prolific writer who combined Bible scholarship with Greek philosophy to present a systematic theology based on Christian Universalist beliefs.Clement of Alexandria: The Alexandrian Catechetical School

Origen was the student and successor of Clement of Alexandria. This 3rd century theologian is generally regarded as the most significant of all the ancient teachers of Christian Universalism. He wrote over 6,000 works including commentaries on almost every book of the Bible, sermons, treatises, letters, apologies, and the Hexapla, a scholarly translation of the Old Testament.Origen of Alexandria: The Alexandrian Catechetical School

Saint Gregory of Nyssa and Saint Macrina the Younger, who were brother and sister, were both prominent Christian Universalists of the 4th century in the Alexandrian tradition of Clement and Origen.Gregory of Nyssa was a bishop and theologian. Macrina the Younger was the leader of a convent of nuns.Gregory of Nyssa

Another branch of Christian Universalism in the ancient church, separate from the Alexandria school, was the Nestorian movement which later became the Assyrian Church of the East. Nestorianism originated in the 5th century in Constantinople and Antioch. Theodore of Mopsuestia was an influential bishop who introduced universal reconciliation into the liturgy of the Nestorians, and who is still honored in the Nestorian tradition as the "Interpreter" of the faith.Theodore of Mopsuestia: Leader of the Nestorians

The conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine to Christianity and the legalization of the religion in 313 gave increasing influence to the Roman theological school, which taught eternal torment of the wicked. The centralization of the Christian Church under Roman imperial authority and the rise of Latin translations of the Bible instead of the Greek original of the New Testament were major factors in the decline of Alexandrian Christian Universalism The Christian Universalist Association > History of Universalism

The Roman Emperor Justinian chose to enforce the theory of eternal damnation over universalism. In 544, the Roman Emperor Justinian pressured a council in Constantinople to condemn Origen as a heretic because of his Universalist beliefs, but this attempt was initially unsuccessful. Robert Sträuli, (1987). Origenes der Diamantene.


Even today the hope of universalism is allowed within Orthodoxy as a theologumen,and is not considered heresy.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2010, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,708 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
Well,I'll start by simply repeating what you didn't respond to on the other thread.


In the first five or six centuries of Christian history, the majority of theological schools in the East taught Universalism. New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII: Trench - Zwingli | Christian Classics Ethereal Library

The most important such school was the Didascalium in Alexandria, Egypt, which was founded by Saint Pantaenus ca. 190 C.E.Alexandria was the center of learning and intellectual discourse in the ancient Mediterranean world, and was the theological center of gravity of Christianity prior to the rise of the imperial Roman Church.Alexandrian Christianity emphasized apocatastasis and theosis as its main teachings.The Christian Universalist Association > History of Universalism

Saint Clement of Alexandria succeeded Pantaenus as the second head of the Didascalium in the late 2nd century. He was a prolific writer who combined Bible scholarship with Greek philosophy to present a systematic theology based on Christian Universalist beliefs.Clement of Alexandria: The Alexandrian Catechetical School

Origen was the student and successor of Clement of Alexandria. This 3rd century theologian is generally regarded as the most significant of all the ancient teachers of Christian Universalism. He wrote over 6,000 works including commentaries on almost every book of the Bible, sermons, treatises, letters, apologies, and the Hexapla, a scholarly translation of the Old Testament.Origen of Alexandria: The Alexandrian Catechetical School

Saint Gregory of Nyssa and Saint Macrina the Younger, who were brother and sister, were both prominent Christian Universalists of the 4th century in the Alexandrian tradition of Clement and Origen.Gregory of Nyssa was a bishop and theologian. Macrina the Younger was the leader of a convent of nuns.Gregory of Nyssa

Another branch of Christian Universalism in the ancient church, separate from the Alexandria school, was the Nestorian movement which later became the Assyrian Church of the East. Nestorianism originated in the 5th century in Constantinople and Antioch. Theodore of Mopsuestia was an influential bishop who introduced universal reconciliation into the liturgy of the Nestorians, and who is still honored in the Nestorian tradition as the "Interpreter" of the faith.Theodore of Mopsuestia: Leader of the Nestorians

The conversion of the Roman Emperor Constantine to Christianity and the legalization of the religion in 313 gave increasing influence to the Roman theological school, which taught eternal torment of the wicked. The centralization of the Christian Church under Roman imperial authority and the rise of Latin translations of the Bible instead of the Greek original of the New Testament were major factors in the decline of Alexandrian Christian Universalism The Christian Universalist Association > History of Universalism

The Roman Emperor Justinian chose to enforce the theory of eternal damnation over universalism. In 544, the Roman Emperor Justinian pressured a council in Constantinople to condemn Origen as a heretic because of his Universalist beliefs, but this attempt was initially unsuccessful.


Even today the hope of universalism is allowed within Orthodoxy as a theologumen,and is not considered heresy.
Thank you lifertexan. Now can you go further back than this?
Say.....intertestamental...or even the first century AD?

Secondly, I didn't respond to you because it was off topic, a fault of mine for imposing a rebuttal to one's statement that ET was created in Roman Catholicism's infancy. This is far from the truth.

Thirdly, please produce information that Orthodox Christianity today believes that universalism "speaks of God".

Fourthly, Clement of Alexandria was not decided on the subject, as his works contradict universalism in some areas. It was Origen, that developed the theory from some of C of A works.

Fifthly, these church fathers you referred to are not the early church, the early church is the church of the 1st and 2nd centuries.

In Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2010, 03:57 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,557,049 times
Reputation: 598
More.

Gregory of Nyssa famously defended the doctrine of the Trinity in the Second Ecumenical Council in AD 381, and Gregory of Nyssa also defended the doctrine of universalism with the restoration of all things. Ironically, the Fifth Ecumenical Council in 553 condemned Origen's universalism according to the wishes of Emperor Flavius Justinian, who wanted to condemn all universalist teachings, but the Fifth Ecumenical Council also commended Gregory of Nyssa, calling him a holy Father who wrote about the true faith. And universalism has been heterodox in most of Western Christianity since then.
Pierre Batiffel, "Apocatastasis", The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume I,


On the other hand, universalism was an orthodox option during the Early Church and the first four Ecumenical Councils. For example, four of the six known theological schools during the Church's first five centuries taught universalism. George T. Night, "Universalists", New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, Vol. XII:


Various theologians, including Clement of Alexandria and Origen in the 3rd century, St. Gregory of Nyssa in the 4th century, and St. Isaac the Syrian in the 7th century, expressed universalist positions in early Christianity. Though Gregory of Nyssa was a known universalist, he was never condemned. He was additionally declared "the father of fathers" by the seventh ecumenical council. http://www.thefreelibrary.com/St.+Gr...sa-a0126313737





"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality (annihilationism); one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked”. The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge, vol. 12, p. 96;

Last edited by lifertexan; 08-15-2010 at 04:42 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2010, 04:00 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,557,049 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Thank you lifertexan. Now can you go further back than this?
Say.....intertestamental...or even the first century AD?

Secondly, I didn't respond to you because it was off topic, a fault of mine for imposing a rebuttal to one's statement that ET was created in Roman Catholicism's infancy. This is far from the truth.

Thirdly, please produce information that Orthodox Christianity today believes that universalism "speaks of God".

Fourthly, Clement of Alexandria was not decided on the subject, as his works contradict universalism in some areas. It was Origen, that developed the theory from some of C of A works.

Fifthly, these church fathers you referred to are not the early church, the early church is the church of the 1st and 2nd centuries.

In Christ.

Christian thought did not develop full blown in 70 AD.The early church fathers formulated theology as issues came up.You questioned my remarks on Constantine.I am responding to that.Constantine did not live before 100 AD.I am showing you what the early church believed before eternal damnation won the day through the support of the Roman emperors who wanted a means of controlling the masses through the threat of eternal damnation by the church.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2010, 04:09 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,557,049 times
Reputation: 598
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post

Thirdly, please produce information that Orthodox Christianity today believes that universalism "speaks of God".


"The Russian Orthodox Bishop Hilarion of Vienna, on April 9, 2008, in his presentation at the First World Apostolic Congress of Divine Mercy at the Vatican, argued that God's mercy is so great that He does not condemn sinners to everlasting punishment. Bishop Hilarion stated that the Orthodox Catholic understanding of hell corresponds roughly to the Roman Catholic notion of purgatory"

Catholic World News.



Bishop Timothy Ware (of the Greek Orthodox Church) wrote:

Hell exists as a final possibility, but several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God....we must not despair of anyone's salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. No one must be excluded from our loving intercession. "What is a merciful heart?" asked Isaac the Syrian. "It is a heart that burns with love for the whole of creation, for humans, for birds, for the beasts, for the demons, for all creatures." Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the devil.
(The Orthodox Church, New Edition., p. 262)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2010, 04:25 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,399,592 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifertexan View Post
"The Russian Orthodox Bishop Hilarion of Vienna, on April 9, 2008, in his presentation at the First World Apostolic Congress of Divine Mercy at the Vatican, argued that God's mercy is so great that He does not condemn sinners to everlasting punishment. Bishop Hilarion stated that the Orthodox Catholic understanding of hell corresponds roughly to the Roman Catholic notion of purgatory"

Catholic World News.



Bishop Timothy Ware (of the Greek Orthodox Church) wrote:

Hell exists as a final possibility, but several of the Fathers have none the less believed that in the end all will be reconciled to God....we must not despair of anyone's salvation, but must long and pray for the reconciliation of all without exception. No one must be excluded from our loving intercession. "What is a merciful heart?" asked Isaac the Syrian. "It is a heart that burns with love for the whole of creation, for humans, for birds, for the beasts, for the demons, for all creatures." Gregory of Nyssa said that Christians may legitimately hope even for the redemption of the devil.
(The Orthodox Church, New Edition., p. 262)
It is obvious that many Christians do not have a merciful heart ...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2010, 04:32 PM
 
1,883 posts, read 2,557,049 times
Reputation: 598
Not relevant to the issue of UR in the early church,but thought this was funny.

Hell needed as a deterrent
Hosea Ballou

This anecdote by Rev. Elizabeth Strong, a Unitarian Universalist, sums up the issue:

Hosea Ballou was riding the circuit in the New Hampshire hills with a Baptist minister one day, arguing theology as they traveled. At one point, the Baptist looked over and said, "Brother Ballou, if I were a Universalist and feared not the fires of hell, I could hit you over the head, steal your horse and saddle, and ride away, and I'd still go to heaven."

Ballou looked over at him and said, "If you were a Universalist, the idea would never occur to you."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2010, 04:33 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 7,399,592 times
Reputation: 895
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Thank you lifertexan. Now can you go further back than this?
Say.....intertestamental...or even the first century AD?

Secondly, I didn't respond to you because it was off topic, a fault of mine for imposing a rebuttal to one's statement that ET was created in Roman Catholicism's infancy. This is far from the truth.

Thirdly, please produce information that Orthodox Christianity today believes that universalism "speaks of God".

Fourthly, Clement of Alexandria was not decided on the subject, as his works contradict universalism in some areas. It was Origen, that developed the theory from some of C of A works.

Fifthly, these church fathers you referred to are not the early church, the early church is the church of the 1st and 2nd centuries.

In Christ.
Clement of Alexandria was a universalist, and none of his writings contradict universalism. The writings you refer to were not written by Clement of Alexandria, just as second clement was not actually written by Clement of Rome.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/clement.html

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-15-2010 at 04:43 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-15-2010, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,432,708 times
Reputation: 420
lifertexan,

I never said anything about Constantine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top