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At Vatican II, a 2000 to 200 majority of bishops, — ten to one — redefined the Church as "the people of God". That hit at the heart of papal absolutism. In effect, the Council Fathers said to us: "The Pope is not the Church. Your bishop is not the Church. You are the Church. Believe in your Church. Believe in yourselves."
They were saying the exact opposite of what Pius IX announced during the 1870 debate on papal infallibility at Vatican I. During that debate one of his aides came to him and pointed out that infallibility was "not in the Church's tradition".
Pio Nono said, Traditio sono Io. Io sono la chiesa. No one had ever expressed papal absolutism quite so clearly: "I am tradition. I am the Church."
This is the way the Eastern Orthodox has operated since the time of Christ.The EO as a whole has rejected pronouncements and decrees made by their bishops and forced them to recant,the idea being that if the WHOLE body of the Church makes a decision,then God has spoken through the Church.This is undoubtedly one of the things (the other being the bishops of all the various EO churches making doctrinal decisions collectively rather than unilaterally by a Pope) that has saved the EO from the mistakes and abuses of the RCC.
Looks like it took the RCC 1900 years to get back to where the EO has always been.
This is the way the Eastern Orthodox has operated since the time of Christ.The EO as a whole has rejected pronouncements and decrees made by their bishops and forced them to recant,the idea being that if the WHOLE body of the Church makes a decision,then God has spoken through the Church.This is undoubtedly one of the things (the other being the bishops of all the various EO churches making doctrinal decisions collectively rather than unilaterally by a Pope) that has saved the EO from the mistakes and abuses of the RCC.
Looks like it took the RCC 1900 years to get back to where the EO has always been.
Good points. I think some of the major disagreements between Roman Catholics and other "catholic" denominations [Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran] is over the doctrine of papal infallibility. All bishops or at least archbishops are considered equal in these other churches; only the Roman Catholic church insists the Pope is superior and infallible.
Yes these are very good points mentioned by both of you, infallibility is greatest stumbling block to Christian unity. Remove it and the possibilities are endless, but the boys in the ivory towers do not want to give up any of their power.
"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" Lord Action
Yes these are very good points mentioned by both of you, infallibility is greatest stumbling block to Christian unity. Remove it and the possibilities are endless, but the boys in the ivory towers do not want to give up any of their power.
"Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely" Lord Action
Remove it and you have protestantism.
Jesus gave total authority solely to Peter. Peter handed some authority to colleagues to run the various districts, but not the FINAL Authority. Jesus gave NO Authority to the other Apostles, nor any other Christian layman. The chair of Peter still resides in Rome. Currently, Pope Benedict XVI sits in that chair. It's as simple as that.
Jesus gave total authority solely to Peter. Peter handed some authority to colleagues to run the various districts, but not the FINAL Authority. Jesus gave NO Authority to the other Apostles, nor any other Christian layman. The chair of Peter still resides in Rome. Currently, Pope Benedict XVI sits in that chair. It's as simple as that.
It's NEVER GOING TO CHANGE. Move on, Ted.
Jesus not only did not give AUTHORITY to anyone . . . he FORBADE it in any form.
Jesus not only did not give AUTHORITY to anyone . . . he FORBADE it in any form.
Really? Are you a Bible believing Christian? If so, refer to Matthew 16:13-19:
13 Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesare'a Philip'pi, he asked his disciples, "Who do men say that the Son of man is?"
14 And they said, "Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Setting: Jesus first talking to all of His disciples and then solely to Peter
Eh, no. Juj is correct. He gave the authority to Peter (Matthew 16:18, for one).
Jesus Christ has authority over all - not Peter! The RCC misinterpreted that scripture long ago and look at the mess that has become of the RCC! You actually believe that the Pope is closer to God than others? Wow! Can't you see by reading the bible that we are to each go directly to the Father through Christ (not through any sinful man)? I sincerely feel sorry for those born into RCC becasue I know they cannot help what they have been taught.
Jesus Christ has authority over all - not Peter! The RCC misinterpreted that scripture long ago and look at the mess that has become of the RCC! You actually believe that the Pope is closer to God than others? Wow! Can't you see by reading the bible that we are to each go directly to the Father through Christ (not through any sinful man)? I sincerely feel sorry for those born into RCC becasue I know they cannot help what they have been taught.
Jesus Christ has authority over all THROUGH PETER (the Magisterium of the Roman Catholic Church).
The RCC is not "a mess"--on the contrary, it is the oldest institution on the face of the earth. This shouldn't be a surprise, for after all, Jesus Christ himself did promise that "the gates of hell shall not prevail."
Finally, no, I do not "believe that the Pope is closer to God than others." What I do believe is that the Magisterium cannot err in matters of Faith and Morals.
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