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The Lord God gave Man the free will in Genesis 1:26..``doninion over all the earth``... and he allow Man to come and turn from sin and give them self to Jesus or allows man to ignore the call and be your own god if you chose. but put before Man death and life and says ``choose life so you and your seed will live ``He do not force us to love him , but there is a devil and demons who will force us to live for them. and these evil spirits will keep men in bondage of sin and corruption and fight men in the spirit to keep the authority over men to sin...... for example : a man smokes cigarettes and then tries to quit smoking but he has not the will to quit... did you know that there is smoking demons that will blow tobacco smoke into the face of people where they will get the urge to light up again and again with no will or control to stop smoking..... a man who is overweight trys to slow down and lose weight .. did you know that there is fat demons who go against the man will and the man is eating more than he should with no success to lose weight. the list is endless if you stop sinning and are pruned of demons threw Jesus by the power of Holy Spirit and keep clean then the Lord will show you endless authority of the wils of the devil that are the cry of the nations where demon can manipulate man and of his flesh which can be a horror story threw Christ without the fear....
The Lord God gave Man the free will in Genesis 1:26..``doninion over all the earth``... and he allow Man to come and turn from sin and give them self to Jesus or allows man to ignore the call and be your own god if you chose. but put before Man death and life and says ``choose life so you and your seed will live ``He do not force us to love him , but there is a devil and demons who will force us to live for them. and these evil spirits will keep men in bondage of sin and corruption and fight men in the spirit to keep the authority over men to sin...... for example : a man smokes cigarettes and then tries to quit smoking but he has not the will to quit... did you know that there is smoking demons that will blow tobacco smoke into the face of people where they will get the urge to light up again and again with no will or control to stop smoking..... a man who is overweight trys to slow down and lose weight .. did you know that there is fat demons who go against the man will and the man is eating more than he should with no success to lose weight. the list is endless if you stop sinning and are pruned of demons threw Jesus by the power of Holy Spirit and keep clean then the Lord will show you endless authority of the wils of the devil that are the cry of the nations where demon can manipulate man and of his flesh which can be a horror story threw Christ without the fear....
Hi hljc, there is no disputing God gave us dominion, but again this is not really anything to do with "free will".
You should consider that LOVE is a positive FORCE. Its a bit of lopsided plan to suggest that God can't use love as a force yet Satan can force whoever he wants to go to hell? If that were true, 100% would be doomed as God would be stuck with His hands tied while Satan forced everyone to their hellish fate.
So the idea of "forced love" is a bit misplaced - think of LOVE as a positive influence. When someone shows or reveals love to you, you naturally want to follow them and LOVE them back. That is a force. Its not that God is forcing you to love him, but you naturally feel and are influenced to follow love. That is how God works.
So again, true free will is not present in any of this. Even love for my wife is not true free will - saying I loved my wife of my own free will is equivalent to saying I love my wife for no particular reason at all. While the truth is I love my wife because she looks good, because she is kind, because of our closeness, because I feel good around her, and because she is a good cook - to say the least. So there are many reasons why I love my wife - these things have influenced me and have been a positive FORCE which led me to LOVE my wife.
No you have failed. BLAH BLAH BLAH exegetical eisegetical nonsense. Is that all you have? Are you going to tell me I have been usurped next?
A freewill (NOTE: its one word) offering simply means "voluntary" or "willing" and has nothing to do with the notion of "free will" (2 words).
And I never said we don't make choices. Like I said, computers make choices. Dogs make choices. Humans make choices. But they all have a CAUSE or a trigger that CAUSES the choice to be made. The whole point is if we had true free will we would be able to make any choice we wanted with no constraints. If I had free will I could choose to fly to the moon without a spaceship. But unfortunately I am CONSTRAINED and cannot choose to fly to the moon without a spaceship/financing/support/etc.
All of mankind has been constrained in that they cannot choose to do good without Christ intervening. All of mankind has been constrained in that they have all been made sinners in Adam. NONE OF US are free to NOT be sinners. Do you understand the ramification of that? No one ever has been able to NOT SIN (save one - Jesus Christ)! It is our nature. That is how "free" we are - as in not very free at all.
None of us are free to even choose Christ, for it is God who chooses when we will come to Christ - not the other way around.
I take it you couldn't usurp the text I provided?
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
CLAY NOT ROBOTS
If you think the idea of us not having free will makes us "robots", then you need to read this article:
Here is an excerpt:
----
God and man. I looked into Scripture one day to discover the relationship between these two. This, to me, seemed like such an important question that I could not imagine God ignoring it. Surely among the many, divinely-inspired pages of Scripture would be a simple, easy-to-remember explanation of what man was to God. I found it in Romans 9:21:
Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor?
Potter and clay. Here was the divine explanation, so simple, yet so difficult to believe, so damaging to man’s pride. God controls man as a potter controls clay. Even a child could understand that. The revelation was embarrassing and wonderful at the same time. It was embarrassing in that it humbles one to be compared to clay. The Greek word is pelos, which means mud. Yet it was wonderful in that all power, honor, and glory for anything that happened with the clay would go to the Potter.
Yet when I tried to relate this news to some of my friends, they refused to believe that God was the Potter and they were the clay. Instead, they told me they made independent decisions. They called this "free will." This was a good name for it, I thought, for one who is "free" is, by definition, unaffected by outside influences, including God. Free will means that not even God can cause a person to act. Otherwise, that person would not be free.
I was having a hard time believing that my friends actually believed what they said they believed (that they were not influenced by God), so I showed them the verses I quoted at the beginning of this article. These verses, I thought, would prove to them that God does influence man, and that no man whom God influences can be called "free."
"But we are not robots!" my friends objected.
This response puzzled me, as I never suggested that they were robots. Robots buzz and blink. Robots creak, squeak, and often work out of reach of their masters. Some robots will even bump into refrigerators with an impressive clank, should their masters doze at the switch.
Most robots have lights of different colors and whirligig circuitry that befuddles even the repairman. Robots impress their makers, they say, so that the technicians themselves have to sit back and admire the machinery they’ve wrought.
Robots? No. I never said that. Nowhere in Scripture are men compared to robots. But they are compared to clay—Romans 9:21. What a difference. Clay neither buzzes nor blinks; it makes no noise or movement of its own. Clay can do nothing apart from the Potter’s hand. It cannot wander from the wheel. It cannot run into a refrigerator, should the Potter sleep.
A hammer is required to reshape the robot; or a vise, or a welding torch, or a pneumatic drill. The Potter need only bend His fingers, and the ashtray becomes a water pot.
Those who resent the idea of being robots give themselves too much credit. They are not robots. They are clay.
Clay is the elect, whom God has chosen, or have you forgotten?
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman
Don't give yourself too much credit thinking you have free will or even thinking you are a robot. You are nothing but CLAY. It is humbling when you realize what clay is.
Here is the scripture referenced in the previous article...
Like rillets of water is the king’s heart in the hand of Yahweh; Wherever He inclines, He turns it aside. —Proverbs 21:1
He turned their heart to hate His people, To plot against His servants. —Psalm 105:25
All abiding on the earth are reckoned as naught: According to His will is He doing...with those abiding on the earth. —Daniel 4:35
[He] is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will. —Ephesians 1:11
Consequently, then, it is not of him who is willing, nor of him who is racing, but of God, the Merciful. —Romans 9:16
Consequently, then, to whom He will, He is merciful, yet whom He will, He is hardening. —Romans 9:18
Has not the potter the right over the clay, out of the same kneading to make one vessel, indeed, for honor, yet one for dishonor? —Romans 9:21
That's exactly what I see you doing.... assumptions and presuppositions and you can't prove otherwise.
AD HOM. I provided a verse, that no one can usurp that free will existed in the LAW, and that Christ fulfilled the law, therefore our free will offering to Christ, is our confession of who He is. Too bad for those that could not. Not assumption, but pure, based Biblical fact.
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Ok - was this the text I was supposed to "usurp"?
The problem is you have effectively taken the verses out of context and are not taking into account the fact that no one can come to God until God enables them to.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:65 He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."
Furthermore:
Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Neither can you do good who are accustomed to doing evil.
Just like the leopard CANNOT change its spots, we CANNOT change our nature. The only one who can do that is Christ.
Salvation is a complete work of God. "Free will" does not enter into it.
Then you should realize you don't have free will and you didn't choose Christ - He chose you.
I don't want to hear you claim "I AM NOT A ROBOT" ever again. No one ever said you were a robot. You are clay.
Of course He chose me. Yet I offered a free will offering of my confession. Don't any of you unie's pay attention anymore?
Ans no, not everyone is clay...Israel is Clay, the chosen are clay, the potter is God who forms, whom He chose, are the clay molding.
Believe the Bible or don't. I choose, to believe David and Jesus.
Do you?
Of course He chose me. Yet I offered a free will offering of my confession. Don't any of you unie's pay attention anymore?
Believe the Bible or don't. I choose, to believe David and Jesus.
Do you?
Your so-called "free will offering" never would have happened if Christ had never chosen you. The reason you "freely" chose God is because God opened your eyes. So again it was all of God.
AD HOM. I provided a verse, that no one can usurp that free will existed in the LAW, and that Christ fulfilled the law, therefore our free will offering to Christ, is our confession of who He is. Too bad for those that could not. Not assumption, but pure, based Biblical fact.
Surely you jest? If all else fails in an argument, just cry AD HOM and see if you can get someone in trouble without merit - is that what it has come to?
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