U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 08-21-2010, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,199,780 times
Reputation: 401
Default Free will

Few have defined what free will is, although it is mentioned often in the writings of many of the Church Fathers and of others throughout history. Origen defined Free Will as a faculty of the reason to distinguish between good and evil, and a faculty of the will to choose one or the other. Augustine taught that it is a faculty of the reason and the will to choose good with the assistance of grace, or evil when grace is absent.

I think David summed it up pretty well in the Psalms.

Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. My soul [is] continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.

Christ said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Too bad for those that think free will does not exist. It does.

 
Old 08-21-2010, 10:31 AM
 
1,143 posts, read 911,121 times
Reputation: 193
I believe men have an own will, yet not a "free will" - this is a difference, in the verse you posted it should rather mean "voluntarily" than "freewill" imo

e.g. I would like to speak Greek but I cannot; only because I want something I cannot, therefore my will is not free, yes I could try to learn Greek but I might fail because I am too lazy or to stupid, so I have an own will, but this will is not free; only God's will is free (and absolute), free to achieve anything He wants (which is btw that all men shall be saved, so I cannot understand somehow that there is any controversy about the salvation of all men since it is God's will)
 
Old 08-21-2010, 10:35 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,327,028 times
Reputation: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Few have defined what free will is, although it is mentioned often in the writings of many of the Church Fathers and of others throughout history. Origen defined Free Will as a faculty of the reason to distinguish between good and evil, and a faculty of the will to choose one or the other. Augustine taught that it is a faculty of the reason and the will to choose good with the assistance of grace, or evil when grace is absent.

I think David summed it up pretty well in the Psalms.

Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. My soul [is] continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.

Christ said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Too bad for those that think free will does not exist. It does.
Hey sciota, I thought you were a good and faithful Presbyterian! Here is what the WCF say's about free will:

Westminster Confession of Faith

It's not that the sinner (or natural man) has no freedom to choose, he does, but rather that the flesh can only choose within the realm of it's nature. Every choice the flesh makes holds it captive to spiritual death.

The WCF actually summed it up well in Chapter IX, Article III, of their confession of faith, quoted here:

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation: so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

An excellent book by the Protestant Reformer, Martin Luther, goes into this subject with great detail and answers the Arminian objections from scripture. Here it is: Bondage of the Will:

The Bondage of the Will
 
Old 08-21-2010, 10:43 AM
 
12,647 posts, read 6,495,150 times
Reputation: 2157
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Few have defined what free will is, although it is mentioned often in the writings of many of the Church Fathers and of others throughout history. Origen defined Free Will as a faculty of the reason to distinguish between good and evil, and a faculty of the will to choose one or the other. Augustine taught that it is a faculty of the reason and the will to choose good with the assistance of grace, or evil when grace is absent.

I think David summed it up pretty well in the Psalms.

Accept, I beseech thee, the freewill offerings of my mouth, O LORD, and teach me thy judgments. My soul [is] continually in my hand: yet do I not forget thy law.

Christ said:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Too bad for those that think free will does not exist. It does.
Yes, free will exists. Those who say that it doesn't have a false idea of what free will is. One fella on this forum said something to the effect that if free will existed then he could drive straight to the supermarket regardless of what obstacles there were or what twists and turns there were in the street. That he could simply will himself to go straight regardless of external circumstances.

Free will simply involves being able to make choices between one thing and another thing. And it involves being able to accept Jesus as Savior or to reject Him.
 
Old 08-21-2010, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,199,780 times
Reputation: 401
Hey Alabama,

Yes I am a Presbyterian! The difference between free will, and irresistable grace is differentiated by one without grace bestowed, and the other with it. God graces those whom He chooses, and by continually drawing that man nearer to Him, however many steps and stages it takes, it always ends up in one act of free will, an offering of their selves to God, as David simply stated in the Psalms. I choose to believe David's Psalms, and not what you, or others may propose.

We, by depravity of sin, choose sin, no matter what. By God's grace, we choose Him, by matter of that grace.

Some choose Him immediately, without all the fuss. Some do not, and it takes many acts and stages of continual dragging. But for those that He does not choose, we simply choose sin.

Calvinism does not deny free will. It supports irresistable grace.
 
Old 08-21-2010, 11:00 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,327,028 times
Reputation: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hey Alabama,

Yes I am a Presbyterian! The difference between free will, and irresistable grace is differentiated by one without grace bestowed, and the other with it. God graces those whom He chooses, and by continually drawing that man nearer to Him, however many steps and stages it takes, it always ends up in one act of free will, an offering of their selves to God, as David simply stated in the Psalms. I choose to believe David's Psalms, and not what you, or others may propose.

We, by depravity of sin, choose sin, no matter what. By God's grace, we choose Him, by matter of that grace.

Some choose Him immediately, without all the fuss. Some do not, and it takes many acts and stages of continual dragging. But for those that He does not choose, we simply choose sin.

Calvinism does not deny free will. It supports irresistable grace.
I agree with your reasoning if you're speaking of those born of the Spirit. If you're speaking of those still held captive in spiritual death by the flesh, both Jesus and Paul would refute it:

Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

And by Paul, here:

1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;

Only those who are born of the Spirit CAN receive and choose things of the Spirit to their own spiritual good.

Is this not what you believe?

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 08-21-2010 at 11:13 AM.. Reason: typo
 
Old 08-21-2010, 11:07 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,815,312 times
Reputation: 647
Free will is a misnomer if you are simply using it as a synonym for "making a choice".

My dog might make a choice to eat something or not - does it have free will?

A computer makes billions of choices -as represented in programming code by a simple IF THEN construct- does a computer have free will?

I can choose to fly to the moon - doesn't mean its going to happen - I am not free to make it happen.

We do have a will, but it is heavily influenced and constrained by our desires, environment, experiences, and circumstances.
 
Old 08-21-2010, 11:18 AM
 
16,311 posts, read 14,117,979 times
Reputation: 7954
Parroting scripture and claiming free will.............

Last edited by june 7th; 08-21-2010 at 11:46 AM..
 
Old 08-21-2010, 11:19 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,199,780 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Free will is a misnomer if you are simply using it as a synonym for "making a choice".

My dog might make a choice to eat something or not - does it have free will?

A computer makes billions of choices -as represented in programming code by a simple IF THEN construct- does a computer have free will?

I can choose to fly to the moon - doesn't mean its going to happen - I am not free to make it happen.

We do have a will, but it is heavily influenced and constrained by our desires, environment, experiences, and circumstances.
Legoman,

Your philosophy fails in light of the Biblical text.

A dog makes the choice because he is hungry!
Computers don't have a soul.
You can't fly to the moon because you don't have a spaceship.

Falure once again.
 
Old 08-21-2010, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,199,780 times
Reputation: 401
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I agree with your reasoning if you're speaking of those born of the Spirit. If you're speaking of those still held captive in spiritual death by the flesh, both Jesus and Paul would refute it:

Joh 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life;

And by Paul, here:

1Co 2:14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know them , because spiritually they are discerned;

Only those who are born of the Spirit CAN receive and choose things of the Spirit to their own spiritual good.

Is this not what you believe?
Matt 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not!
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top