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Old 09-03-2010, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
It comes down to...
The....

Quote:
Concordant Literal Translation
Thanks for proving our very point.
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Old 09-03-2010, 10:19 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,338 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It comes down to...
The....
Concordant Literal Translation

Thanks for proving our very point.
When I'd act like I was spastic my mother would scold me and warn me that I wouldn't want God to make me stuck like that.

Your diversion is obvious to all. It also mocks the best access to the Hebrew and Greek originals for Emglish and German readers, something not too difficult to self verify. You wouldn't want God to make you stuck like that, diverting from the truth, mocking God's Word...

"Now, if our evangel is covered, also, it is covered in those who are perishing,in whom the god of this eon blinds the apprehensions of the unbelieving so that the illumination of the evangel of the glory of Christ, Who is the Image of the invisible God, does not irradiate them."

2 Corinthians 4:3-4; (Concordant Literal Translation)
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Old 09-04-2010, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,265 posts, read 20,872,370 times
Reputation: 9950
Sciotamicks, I'm wondering if you know the difference between eisegesis and exegesis because they don't mean the same thing at all, and you seem to have picked the wrong word.
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:14 PM
 
1,472 posts, read 1,014,777 times
Reputation: 373
Hello, I'm new to this forum and felt compelled to say something. I'll give a little introduction first about my thinking. I've studied this topic for a long time, but I've seen great greek arguments on both sides that I've never considered, so props to everyone here. amazing thread! I have no theological degrees or seminary background, but I study hard on Christian issues that concern me. My education background is actually in criminal justice, which is part of the reason why I consider this a hard Christian issue...not just hard, but depending on the true meaning of scripture, a philosophically devastating issue to Christian theology.

In Criminal Justice, punishment has several different purposes a few of which are: deterrence, retribution, correction, and restoration. In the past few millenia, for most societies its always been about the first two of these: deterrence and retribution. Today, its a bit of a mix, but its quickly drifting more towards the later two: correction and restoration. Now obviously, God has the ultimate knowledge of what is truly real justice, but if traditional eternal torment or perhaps even annihilationism is correct, it seems God is only concerned with the first two of the four I listed, (where as UR seems to either focus on the later two or maybe all of them). If this (the first two) is truly the way God punishes, I'm sure he has ways of seeing things that are beyond our comprehesion or perhaps most of the modern apologists I've read are correct in saying its not torture and some like C.S. Lewis and William Lane Craig (through divine middle-knowledge) believing that the Doors of hell are lock from the inside. Either way we look at it, it still seems to only have to do with deterrence and retribution and perhaps, just giving everyone what they want in the end.

If the Bill Wiese and Mary Baxter dream hells are true and it really is unending torture from demons, I'm afraid the comments the UR people here have made about God being a monster are hard to ignore. It would make what we would think of as injust, eccessive torture based ruling styles like those of Vlad the Impaler and the Spanish Inquisition seem like a slap on the wrist by comparison. Anyone here who believe in eternal torture want to go back to those justice systems since its a bit closer to God's style? Are we to say that because he's God and he made everything, we have no right to philosophically question things that if done by a human to other humans would make that human undiscribably horrid monster in the eyes any modern human? Hopefully not many of you ETer's here believe in that kind of hell.

Although I haven't made up my mind on what I believe "hell" or "the lake of fire" is or how long it lasts or who perspective to take, my conscience has a hard time accepting any of the above ideas because they seem incomplete and not as glorifying to think God can't win everyone over eventually especally if he wants it. Basically, he created the cosmos in such a way that he defined the significance of sin as infinite to finite minds like ours, having us born in to this sinful nature, and then creating a way to heaven that only a few of us by comparison will find in our average of 80 year life, then saying those who don't find it, have no chance to change it past their lifetimes and possibly wanted it that way... something just doesn't add up and my conscience is screaming at me for not questioning this for so many years. Even when I consider the brilliant divine middle knowledge idea I mentioned above, it still seems like cruel cosmic puppetry to my conscience and I want some answers; some I may not get till I'm dead... Anyways, just a few things to think about and I'm rambling my introduction now...

Anyways, philosophical and personal conflicts aside, I mainly posted here because I want to get Sciotamicks view of whether or not you see UR believers as heretics on a one way trip to hell and if you believes that, why, and if not, why fight so hard to destroy UR belief? I have to commend you for having the courage to stick with here where its like 10 to 1, but whats so important? If I remember my studies correctly (and I'm currently still trying to find where I read this), even Saint Augustine, the guy who used Matthew 25:46 for violent ET purposes, didn't think UR believers were damned, just in error. Is it really neccessary to label people who think Jesus's sacrifice did more than it actually did as heretics when most of them believe those without Christ will still pay for their sins and God has a more modernly acceptable justice system?... Oh yeah, and if so, should we torture them until they believe in ET or annihilationism to keep them from hell? ...Ok that last one was just for fun. No one expects the ETer inquisition! ;p
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Old 09-04-2010, 07:21 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,380,473 times
Reputation: 437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Hello, I'm new to this forum and felt compelled to say something. I'll give a little introduction first about my thinking. I've studied this topic for a long time, but I've seen great greek arguments on both sides that I've never considered, so props to everyone here. amazing thread! I have no theological degrees or seminary background, but I study hard on Christian issues that concern me. My education background is actually in criminal justice, which is part of the reason why I consider this a hard Christian issue...not just hard, but depending on the true meaning of scripture, a philosophically devastating issue to Christian theology.

In Criminal Justice, punishment has several different purposes a few of which are: deterrence, retribution, correction, and restoration. In the past few millenia, for most societies its always been about the first two of these: deterrence and retribution. Today, its a bit of a mix, but its quickly drifting more towards the later two: correction and restoration. Now obviously, God has the ultimate knowledge of what is truly real justice, but if traditional eternal torment or perhaps even annihilationism is correct, it seems God is only concerned with the first two of the four I listed, (where as UR seems to either focus on the later two or maybe all of them). If this (the first two) is truly the way God punishes, I'm sure he has ways of seeing things that are beyond our comprehesion or perhaps most of the modern apologists I've read are correct in saying its not torture and some like C.S. Lewis and William Lane Craig (through divine middle-knowledge) believing that the Doors of hell are lock from the inside. Either way we look at it, it still seems to only have to do with deterrence and retribution and perhaps, just giving everyone what they want in the end.

If the Bill Wiese and Mary Baxter dream hells are true and it really is unending torture from demons, I'm afraid the comments the UR people here have made about God being a monster are hard to ignore. It would make what we would think of as injust, eccessive torture based ruling styles like those of Vlad the Impaler and the Spanish Inquisition seem like a slap on the wrist by comparison. Anyone here who believe in eternal torture want to go back to those justice systems since its a bit closer to God's style? Are we to say that because he's God and he made everything, we have no right to philosophically question things that if done by a human to other humans would make that human undiscribably horrid monster in the eyes any modern human? Hopefully not many of you ETer's here believe in that kind of hell.

Although I haven't made up my mind on what I believe "hell" or "the lake of fire" is or how long it lasts or who perspective to take, my conscience has a hard time accepting any of the above ideas because they seem incomplete and not as glorifying to think God can't win everyone over eventually especally if he wants it. Basically, he created the cosmos in such a way that he defined the significance of sin as infinite to finite minds like ours, having us born in to this sinful nature, and then creating a way to heaven that only a few of us by comparison will find in our average of 80 year life, then saying those who don't find it, have no chance to change it past their lifetimes and possibly wanted it that way... something just doesn't add up and my conscience is screaming at me for not questioning this for so many years. Even when I consider the brilliant divine middle knowledge idea I mentioned above, it still seems like cruel cosmic puppetry to my conscience and I want some answers; some I may not get till I'm dead... Anyways, just a few things to think about and I'm rambling my introduction now...

Anyways, philosophical and personal conflicts aside, I mainly posted here because I want to get Sciotamicks view of whether or not you see UR believers as heretics on a one way trip to hell and if you believes that, why, and if not, why fight so hard to destroy UR belief? I have to commend you for having the courage to stick with here where its like 10 to 1, but whats so important? If I remember my studies correctly (and I'm currently still trying to find where I read this), even Saint Augustine, the guy who used Matthew 25:46 for violent ET purposes, didn't think UR believers were damned, just in error. Is it really neccessary to label people who think Jesus's sacrifice did more than it actually did as heretics when most of them believe those without Christ will still pay for their sins and God has a more modernly acceptable justice system?... Oh yeah, and if so, should we torture them until they believe in ET or annihilationism to keep them from hell? ...Ok that last one was just for fun. No one expects the ETer inquisition! ;p
Welcome to the forum, Jrhockney. Great first post.
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Old 09-04-2010, 10:54 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 844,338 times
Reputation: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrhockney View Post
Basically, he created the cosmos in such a way that he defined the significance of sin as infinite to finite minds like ours...
I just recently posted this excerpt in another thread here somewhere...
__________________________________________________ __________

Only those things arising from the nature of God can be permanent. He is not helplessly trapped by men's iniquity into suffering never ending evils. So, Jesus limits the sin against the spirit and its results, saying it is not forgiven, "...neither in this eon nor in that which is impending." (loc.cit., Matthew 12:31-32, Concordant Literal Translation) We know the eons end, individually and collectively from the following phrase of Holy Writ: "...the end of the eons," (Hebrews 9:26, lit.) and, "...the ends of the eons." (1 Corinthians 10:11, lit.)

Many keep working with the popular assumption that any and all sin is infinite; hence, requiring infinite retribution. This is beyond ridiculous. I am truly amazed at how ubiquitous this unscriptural idea is. For so many it is an unexamined prior commitment to a lie. It is handed down (tradition) to people who receive it without attempting to substantiate it from Scripture.

Also, there is not only unforgiven or forgiven sin. The other category is paying for your sin. Under the law certain retributions were required. When those were met, the sin was paid for. That made it over and done with. Steal an apple you payback two (2.) If you steal a man's means to make a living it is a four (4) fold return. One owes the restitution plus the lamb of atonement. Then it is over with.

I'm not advocating legalism, an attempt to be declared righteous by God because of our works. I'm just dealing with the fact there are other ways out than forgiveness. Also, from the required repayment, it is obvious God does not expect a never-ending payment of apples for all of eternity for the unforgiven apple thief. Humans do not commit infinte sin!

Of course, the popular doctrine portrays countless sentient beings in constant torture for ever because their sins are not forgiven. If god ever forgave them there would be no reason to continue torturing them. It is said to be the divine retribution exacted for their sin that satisfies the demands of the holiness of god and his justice. But, if he was ever satisfied, He'd stop torturing them. This Master Torturer never forgives and is never satisfied, all the while whispering, "I love you, I love you" into His helpless victims ears. You who believe this are being changed into the same image.

Last edited by JamesMRohde; 09-04-2010 at 11:04 PM..
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Old 09-05-2010, 05:05 AM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,415,028 times
Reputation: 5146
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Hello, I'm new to this forum and felt compelled to say something. I'll give a little introduction first about my thinking. I've studied this topic for a long time, but I've seen great greek arguments on both sides that I've never considered, so props to everyone here. amazing thread! I have no theological degrees or seminary background, but I study hard on Christian issues that concern me. My education background is actually in criminal justice, which is part of the reason why I consider this a hard Christian issue...not just hard, but depending on the true meaning of scripture, a philosophically devastating issue to Christian theology.

In Criminal Justice, punishment has several different purposes a few of which are: deterrence, retribution, correction, and restoration. In the past few millenia, for most societies its always been about the first two of these: deterrence and retribution. Today, its a bit of a mix, but its quickly drifting more towards the later two: correction and restoration. Now obviously, God has the ultimate knowledge of what is truly real justice, but if traditional eternal torment or perhaps even annihilationism is correct, it seems God is only concerned with the first two of the four I listed, (where as UR seems to either focus on the later two or maybe all of them). If this (the first two) is truly the way God punishes, I'm sure he has ways of seeing things that are beyond our comprehesion or perhaps most of the modern apologists I've read are correct in saying its not torture and some like C.S. Lewis and William Lane Craig (through divine middle-knowledge) believing that the Doors of hell are lock from the inside. Either way we look at it, it still seems to only have to do with deterrence and retribution and perhaps, just giving everyone what they want in the end.

If the Bill Wiese and Mary Baxter dream hells are true and it really is unending torture from demons, I'm afraid the comments the UR people here have made about God being a monster are hard to ignore. It would make what we would think of as injust, eccessive torture based ruling styles like those of Vlad the Impaler and the Spanish Inquisition seem like a slap on the wrist by comparison. Anyone here who believe in eternal torture want to go back to those justice systems since its a bit closer to God's style? Are we to say that because he's God and he made everything, we have no right to philosophically question things that if done by a human to other humans would make that human undiscribably horrid monster in the eyes any modern human? Hopefully not many of you ETer's here believe in that kind of hell.

Although I haven't made up my mind on what I believe "hell" or "the lake of fire" is or how long it lasts or who perspective to take, my conscience has a hard time accepting any of the above ideas because they seem incomplete and not as glorifying to think God can't win everyone over eventually especally if he wants it. Basically, he created the cosmos in such a way that he defined the significance of sin as infinite to finite minds like ours, having us born in to this sinful nature, and then creating a way to heaven that only a few of us by comparison will find in our average of 80 year life, then saying those who don't find it, have no chance to change it past their lifetimes and possibly wanted it that way... something just doesn't add up and my conscience is screaming at me for not questioning this for so many years. Even when I consider the brilliant divine middle knowledge idea I mentioned above, it still seems like cruel cosmic puppetry to my conscience and I want some answers; some I may not get till I'm dead... Anyways, just a few things to think about and I'm rambling my introduction now...

Anyways, philosophical and personal conflicts aside, I mainly posted here because I want to get Sciotamicks view of whether or not you see UR believers as heretics on a one way trip to hell and if you believes that, why, and if not, why fight so hard to destroy UR belief? I have to commend you for having the courage to stick with here where its like 10 to 1, but whats so important? If I remember my studies correctly (and I'm currently still trying to find where I read this), even Saint Augustine, the guy who used Matthew 25:46 for violent ET purposes, didn't think UR believers were damned, just in error. Is it really neccessary to label people who think Jesus's sacrifice did more than it actually did as heretics when most of them believe those without Christ will still pay for their sins and God has a more modernly acceptable justice system?... Oh yeah, and if so, should we torture them until they believe in ET or annihilationism to keep them from hell? ...Ok that last one was just for fun. No one expects the ETer inquisition! ;p
This OP deserves to be visible and not shuffled so quickly...
P.S. Welcome to this forum!
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Old 09-05-2010, 06:33 PM
 
37,496 posts, read 25,232,088 times
Reputation: 5854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Hello, I'm new to this forum and felt compelled to say something. I'll give a little introduction first about my thinking. I've studied this topic for a long time, but I've seen great greek arguments on both sides that I've never considered, so props to everyone here. amazing thread! I have no theological degrees or seminary background, but I study hard on Christian issues that concern me. My education background is actually in criminal justice, which is part of the reason why I consider this a hard Christian issue...not just hard, but depending on the true meaning of scripture, a philosophically devastating issue to Christian theology.

In Criminal Justice, punishment has several different purposes a few of which are: deterrence, retribution, correction, and restoration. In the past few millenia, for most societies its always been about the first two of these: deterrence and retribution. Today, its a bit of a mix, but its quickly drifting more towards the later two: correction and restoration. Now obviously, God has the ultimate knowledge of what is truly real justice, but if traditional eternal torment or perhaps even annihilationism is correct, it seems God is only concerned with the first two of the four I listed, (where as UR seems to either focus on the later two or maybe all of them). If this (the first two) is truly the way God punishes, I'm sure he has ways of seeing things that are beyond our comprehesion or perhaps most of the modern apologists I've read are correct in saying its not torture and some like C.S. Lewis and William Lane Craig (through divine middle-knowledge) believing that the Doors of hell are lock from the inside. Either way we look at it, it still seems to only have to do with deterrence and retribution and perhaps, just giving everyone what they want in the end.

If the Bill Wiese and Mary Baxter dream hells are true and it really is unending torture from demons, I'm afraid the comments the UR people here have made about God being a monster are hard to ignore. It would make what we would think of as injust, eccessive torture based ruling styles like those of Vlad the Impaler and the Spanish Inquisition seem like a slap on the wrist by comparison. Anyone here who believe in eternal torture want to go back to those justice systems since its a bit closer to God's style? Are we to say that because he's God and he made everything, we have no right to philosophically question things that if done by a human to other humans would make that human undiscribably horrid monster in the eyes any modern human? Hopefully not many of you ETer's here believe in that kind of hell.

Although I haven't made up my mind on what I believe "hell" or "the lake of fire" is or how long it lasts or who perspective to take, my conscience has a hard time accepting any of the above ideas because they seem incomplete and not as glorifying to think God can't win everyone over eventually especally if he wants it. Basically, he created the cosmos in such a way that he defined the significance of sin as infinite to finite minds like ours, having us born in to this sinful nature, and then creating a way to heaven that only a few of us by comparison will find in our average of 80 year life, then saying those who don't find it, have no chance to change it past their lifetimes and possibly wanted it that way... something just doesn't add up and my conscience is screaming at me for not questioning this for so many years. Even when I consider the brilliant divine middle knowledge idea I mentioned above, it still seems like cruel cosmic puppetry to my conscience and I want some answers; some I may not get till I'm dead... Anyways, just a few things to think about and I'm rambling my introduction now...

Anyways, philosophical and personal conflicts aside, I mainly posted here because I want to get Sciotamicks view of whether or not you see UR believers as heretics on a one way trip to hell and if you believes that, why, and if not, why fight so hard to destroy UR belief? I have to commend you for having the courage to stick with here where its like 10 to 1, but whats so important? If I remember my studies correctly (and I'm currently still trying to find where I read this), even Saint Augustine, the guy who used Matthew 25:46 for violent ET purposes, didn't think UR believers were damned, just in error. Is it really neccessary to label people who think Jesus's sacrifice did more than it actually did as heretics when most of them believe those without Christ will still pay for their sins and God has a more modernly acceptable justice system?... Oh yeah, and if so, should we torture them until they believe in ET or annihilationism to keep them from hell? ...Ok that last one was just for fun. No one expects the ETer inquisition! ;p
Welcome . . . an excellent post! I can't wait for sciota's answers.
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Old 09-05-2010, 09:46 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,286,196 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Hello, I'm new to this forum and felt compelled to say something. I'll give a little introduction first about my thinking. I've studied this topic for a long time, but I've seen great greek arguments on both sides that I've never considered, so props to everyone here. amazing thread! I have no theological degrees or seminary background, but I study hard on Christian issues that concern me. My education background is actually in criminal justice, which is part of the reason why I consider this a hard Christian issue...not just hard, but depending on the true meaning of scripture, a philosophically devastating issue to Christian theology.

In Criminal Justice, punishment has several different purposes a few of which are: deterrence, retribution, correction, and restoration. In the past few millenia, for most societies its always been about the first two of these: deterrence and retribution. Today, its a bit of a mix, but its quickly drifting more towards the later two: correction and restoration. Now obviously, God has the ultimate knowledge of what is truly real justice, but if traditional eternal torment or perhaps even annihilationism is correct, it seems God is only concerned with the first two of the four I listed, (where as UR seems to either focus on the later two or maybe all of them). If this (the first two) is truly the way God punishes, I'm sure he has ways of seeing things that are beyond our comprehesion or perhaps most of the modern apologists I've read are correct in saying its not torture and some like C.S. Lewis and William Lane Craig (through divine middle-knowledge) believing that the Doors of hell are lock from the inside. Either way we look at it, it still seems to only have to do with deterrence and retribution and perhaps, just giving everyone what they want in the end.

If the Bill Wiese and Mary Baxter dream hells are true and it really is unending torture from demons, I'm afraid the comments the UR people here have made about God being a monster are hard to ignore. It would make what we would think of as injust, eccessive torture based ruling styles like those of Vlad the Impaler and the Spanish Inquisition seem like a slap on the wrist by comparison. Anyone here who believe in eternal torture want to go back to those justice systems since its a bit closer to God's style? Are we to say that because he's God and he made everything, we have no right to philosophically question things that if done by a human to other humans would make that human undiscribably horrid monster in the eyes any modern human? Hopefully not many of you ETer's here believe in that kind of hell.

Although I haven't made up my mind on what I believe "hell" or "the lake of fire" is or how long it lasts or who perspective to take, my conscience has a hard time accepting any of the above ideas because they seem incomplete and not as glorifying to think God can't win everyone over eventually especally if he wants it. Basically, he created the cosmos in such a way that he defined the significance of sin as infinite to finite minds like ours, having us born in to this sinful nature, and then creating a way to heaven that only a few of us by comparison will find in our average of 80 year life, then saying those who don't find it, have no chance to change it past their lifetimes and possibly wanted it that way... something just doesn't add up and my conscience is screaming at me for not questioning this for so many years. Even when I consider the brilliant divine middle knowledge idea I mentioned above, it still seems like cruel cosmic puppetry to my conscience and I want some answers; some I may not get till I'm dead... Anyways, just a few things to think about and I'm rambling my introduction now...

Anyways, philosophical and personal conflicts aside, I mainly posted here because I want to get Sciotamicks view of whether or not you see UR believers as heretics on a one way trip to hell and if you believes that, why, and if not, why fight so hard to destroy UR belief? I have to commend you for having the courage to stick with here where its like 10 to 1, but whats so important? If I remember my studies correctly (and I'm currently still trying to find where I read this), even Saint Augustine, the guy who used Matthew 25:46 for violent ET purposes, didn't think UR believers were damned, just in error. Is it really neccessary to label people who think Jesus's sacrifice did more than it actually did as heretics when most of them believe those without Christ will still pay for their sins and God has a more modernly acceptable justice system?... Oh yeah, and if so, should we torture them until they believe in ET or annihilationism to keep them from hell? ...Ok that last one was just for fun. No one expects the ETer inquisition! ;p
Thanks for joining in. To answer your question in the last paragraph..

If they personally and individually believe in Christ as the son of the living God, God in the Flesh, and through Him our salvation is secure, and based on these factors...I don't think they personally and individually are heretics, just errored in their eschatological doctrine and tenets, or do I think they are going to hell, since I am ascribe to conditional immortality, after a long time debating with UR and other tenets of eschatology and doctrine, I have come to this conclusion based on several factors.

1st - I am a Full Preterist, so Hell/Hades/Sheol was destroyed in Rev 20

2nd - Because I am a Full Preterist, and I ascribe to the above, then because of our faith in Christ as God in the Flesh, as the scriptures teach, those who accept this pre-requisite, will live forever, as they are already in the New Jerusalem, now and forever as per Dan 7 and Rev 22.

3rd - Since Hell/Hades/Sheol was a Pre-70 AD place of torment for those, rightly deserved, to the people in covenant, as in the Israelites and whoever entered into it, Gentile or Jew, those trangressed it - tormenting flame, or those who were righteous - Abraham's Bosom, I cannot infer based on my beliefs that this place still exists.

4th - Since the Resurrection of the Dead already occured, as per my beliefs, we are living in the New Heavens and Earth, wherein the New Jerusalem hails within, folks that defy the light that shines from it, suffer the second death, which pertains to Rev 20, wherein Death and Hell/Hades/Sheol were cast, in the Lake of Fire. I must infer, that since Christ, referrred to this place in the context of the ROTD in Matthew 10:28, as a place where the body and soul are destroyed, where the Old Creation of man without Christ is destined to, since DEATH/The OLD MAN, is literally burnt, both body and soul, then I must conclude that all that is left in the "incorporeal" of mankind, that is the spirit, is purely conditional based on the presupposed belief in Christ for being part of the NEW CREATION. I must conclude that anyone without Christ, is dead, and when they die physically, they die again, a second time, only this time, eternally, and completely wiped out from all known existence of the creative process. What is left in the 'incorporeal" world, is the New Creation, those that put their faith in Christ.

I hope I have answered your questions.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 09-05-2010 at 09:49 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 09-06-2010, 12:18 AM
 
1,472 posts, read 1,014,777 times
Reputation: 373
Thanks for replying, Sciotamicks. Yeah that pretty much answers my question for you. I had no idea youre a full prederist, and it is sounds like you believe in annihilationism and don't believe UR believers who keep the core beliefs are damned. Believing in full prederism I'm sure you get plenty of heretic claims coming at you yourself from the mainstream and its good to hear your here for eschatological doctrine correction rather than a race to save their souls like the people on street corners (I do wish I had one of their bullhorns at times those ;p ). I understand alot of the reasoning behind annililationism and even full prederism to an extent, but I'm still studying them in full. I find annililationism alot more philosophically logicial than ET at the moment, but even that I still have some issues with and I'm not going to mention at the moment as I'm still not finished studying as much as I would like (and its really late here). Anyways, thanks for your clarification and I may join in again sometime soon if I feel compelled to. Peace out for now.
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