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Old 09-07-2010, 12:37 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesMRohde View Post
To search out more concerning that, "...good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people," (Lk 2:10; AV) probably the best is
Jesus saves all mankind, the truly Good News, Christian universalism--Ultimate Reconcilation--Doctrine of Inclusion--Restitution of all--glorious gospel--Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ (tentmaker.org)
Go to The Scholar's Corner there for some great studies and books or to the forum to get responses on whatever matters you post for those who hang out there.

God is Love.
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Old 09-07-2010, 12:48 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
I am, that being God or SPIRIT "who" is being referenced to in the third person within that of an active present tense, an ongoing result of a previous action (that of the Christ), and in the ongoing result of that action; desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth. The action is indicative, or that of being real. Nowhere is it subjunctive, or that of being contingent, or probable, nor imperative on the subjects response. Neither is it Optative, as in being unlikely or wishful, that the man might come to this salvation and knowledge, as in your perception, "Oh, that man might seek his face and live, if only he would believe." And it is not that of passive-middle, either.


How do you know if it is indicative or optative?
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:06 AM
 
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"If anyone will not work, neither let him eat."

This is predicated on that which is actively ongoing, not a temporary loss of employment, nor that of a lack of faith.
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Old 09-07-2010, 01:52 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
How do you know if it is indicative or optative?

For simplicity, it’s a prevailing tone or quality, which relates to mood of verbs within the Greek language. An example would be that of, "Pick up your cane and walk."
Which would be imperative, upon the person’s response to that which was stated. Optative mood of a verb, relates to that of being possible, but not probable.

"God our Savior who desires…" is real, as is the Resurrection of Christ.

Last edited by Jerwade; 09-07-2010 at 02:12 AM.. Reason: Forgot to say: GOOD NIGHT
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Old 09-07-2010, 02:04 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
For simplicity, it’s a prevailing tone or quality, which relates to mood of verbs within the Greek language. An example would be that of, "Pick up your cane and walk."
Which would be imperative, or contingent upon the person’s response to that which was stated. Optative mood of a verb, relates to that of being possible, but not probable.

"God our Savior who desires…" is real, as is the Resurrection of Christ.
Than you. I'm studying the 4 Greek moods, but I can't figure what the fuss is all about here between sciotamicks and the URs. I guess it comes down to whether you believe God gets what he wants or not. I would think humans have an awful lot of power if they can shake their fist at God for eternity when all he wants is complete reconciliation throughout the universe so there will be no pockets of darkness. He is EVERYWHERE, after all. I wouldn't think he would want to have to be in the presence of evil for all eternity. Oh, well.

The fact that his love is so powerful that it will knock down the most evil thing in existence and cause it to worship and revere him would be pretty astounding........if you ask me, although very hard to imagine.

Still have a lot to learn.
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Old 09-07-2010, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Than you. I'm studying the 4 Greek moods, but I can't figure what the fuss is all about here between sciotamicks and the URs. I guess it comes down to whether you believe God gets what he wants or not. I would think humans have an awful lot of power if they can shake their fist at God for eternity when all he wants is complete reconciliation throughout the universe so there will be no pockets of darkness. He is EVERYWHERE, after all. I wouldn't think he would want to have to be in the presence of evil for all eternity. Oh, well.

The fact that his love is so powerful that it will knock down the most evil thing in existence and cause it to worship and revere him would be pretty astounding........if you ask me, although very hard to imagine.

Still have a lot to learn.
herefornow,

It depends solely on who Adam really was. Was he the first man, or was he the first "covenantal" man brought into a relationship with God?

This concept alone, would crush "all are saved" paradigm regardless of faith in Christ. I believe the latter. Would you like to hear more?
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
herefornow,

It depends solely on who Adam really was. Was he the first man, or was he the first "covenantal" man brought into a relationship with God?

This concept alone, would crush "all are saved" paradigm regardless of faith in Christ. I believe the latter. Would you like to hear more?
Luke 3:21-38 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
21 Now it occurred, as all the people are baptized, at Jesus also being baptized and praying, heaven is opened,
22 and the holy spirit descends on Him, to bodily perception as if a dove, and a voice came out of heaven, saying, "Thou art My Son, the Beloved; in Thee I delight."
23 And He, Jesus, when beginning, was about thirty years old, being a son (as to the law) of Joseph, of Eli, of Matthat, of Levi,
24 of Melchi, of Jannai, of Joseph,
25 of Mattathias, of Amos, of Nahum, of Esli, of Naggai,
26 of Maath, of Mattithiah, of Shemei, of Josech, of Joda,
27 of Joanna, of Rhesa, of Zerubbabel, of Shalthiel, of Neri,
28 of Melchi, of Addi, of Cosam, of Elmadam, of Er,
29 of Jesus, of Eliezer, of Jorim, of Matthat, of Levi,
30 of Simeon, of Judah, of Joseph, of Jonam, of Eliakim,
31 of Melea, of Menna, of Mattathah, of Nathan, of David,
32 of Jesse, of Obed, of Boaz, of Salmon, of Nahson,
33 of Amminadab, of Admein, of Arni, of Hezron, of Pharez, of Judah,
34 of Jacob, of Isaac, of Abraham, of Tera, of Nahor,
35 of Serug, of Reu, of Peleg, of Eber, of Shelah,
36 of Cainan, of Arphaxad, of Shem, of Noah, of Lamech,
37 of Methuselah, of Enoch, of Jared, of Maleleel, of Cainan,
38 of Enosh, of Seth, of Adam, of God.

The meaning as indicated by KJV is: "...Adam, which was the son of God."

Of course, you could claim the other forty-two (42) "sons of" weren't actually "sons."
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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James,

Sure he was. It might be instructive for us to look at Paul’s writings in Romans 7 in which most tend to the idea that Paul is speaking of himself specifically when upon close inspection he is speaking somewhat euphemistically as a member of the Body of Israel (the body of Death). If we review 1 Cor 12 we see how Paul defines “members” as individuals within the Body. This concept carries over into Romans 7 where he doesn’t abandon that Body imagery and indeed employs it to reveal his understanding of the effect of the Law upon the members of the Body of Israel.

Notice as one follows his logic that Paul uses himself as a fellow member of Israel in the first person which encompasses all in the covenant lineage back to Adam. This is why we can make sense of his inexplicable language in verse 9 in which he says that he was once alive before the commandment came. We should readily grasp that no member since Adam was ever alive as a member except for Adam himself when he was first brought into the Garden. Then the commandment came and he died or in Paul’s view all in the covenant body died through Adam’s sin. It is the sin that keeps on giving as all men seeking God in covenant could not attain righteousness through the Law. So in verse 23 Paul reiterates that the members of this body of Death were captive to the sin as a consequence of Law and he laments who will deliver this man of death from bondage with Sin. Of course it is through Christ whom the members of this New Man find their being.

1Co 12:12 ESV For just as the body is one and has MANY MEMBERS, and all the members of the body, though MANY, are one body, so it is with Christ.

Rom 7:1-25 ESV Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives …
But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, …
(4) Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, …
(5) For while WE were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work IN OUR MEMBERS to bear fruit for death. (6) But now WE are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code. …
(8) But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. (9) I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. (10) The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. (11) For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. …
(14) For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin….
(23) but I SEE IN MY MEMBERS another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin THAT DWELLS IN MY MEMBERS. (24) Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

1Co 12:27 ESV Now you are the body of Christ and individually MEMBERS OF IT.

We are now back in the Garden world in which Paul says the man seeking God was once alive. The sin via the Law has been removed from the Garden world and those guarding the entrance have stepped aside for us all to have fellowship and eternal life with the Tree of Life not depending upon our own efforts as we rest in the works of our Savior Jesus Christ.

Blessings.
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Old 09-07-2010, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
herefornow,

It depends solely on who Adam really was. Was he the first man, or was he the first "covenantal" man brought into a relationship with God?

This concept alone, would crush "all are saved" paradigm regardless of faith in Christ. I believe the latter. Would you like to hear more?

Nope. But I am enjoying your convoluted posts.

(I especially like this meaning for convoluted: highly complex or intricate and occasionally devious, though I would say your posts are more than occasionally devious, as is Christendom's teachings as a whole )
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Old 09-07-2010, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
702 posts, read 840,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
James,
Sure he was.
I'm just too dense or something to understand your discussion in Romans seven (7) that follows the above agreement that Adam is son of God. Let me explain why that matters:

Those who considered themselves the leaders and judges of the people in Jesus' day openly and confessedly sought to murder Jesus because by calling Himself "Son of God" He made Himself equal with God. While not condoning their murderous intentions He yet pointedly agreed with the idea of what being a "Son of God" meant. According to this, if any is a "son of Adam" who is "son of God"...that makes them...?

Again...never limited to any sectarian elite, we all are under the imperative from Jesus' mouth to not call any human father because we all have one, the heavenly Father and we ALL are brothers...what does that make us?

Matthew 23:8-10 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
8 "Now you may not be called 'Rabbi,' for One is your Teacher, yet you all are brethren.
9 And 'father' you should not be calling one of you on the earth, for One is your Father, the heavenly.
10 Nor yet may you be called preceptors, for One is your Preceptor, the Christ.

Aren't Jesus' own teachings enough to establish truth for His disciples?!
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