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Yes, the church goes to all lengths to save the "unborn," (even killing doctors), then condemns them to hell after they are born! Hypocrites!!
The fact is, that many (most?) Christians don't WANT all people to go to heaven! THIS is the difference in spirit between Christ who died for sinners, and sinners who want their ticket to ride and that's all..
The absurdity of hellfire (and its unscripturalness) is always worth confronting; like a skunk, once out of the house, the smell lingers for a long, long time.
Blessings,
brian
You wrote ...
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The fact is, that many (most?) Christians don't WANT all people to go to heaven! THIS is the difference in spirit between Christ who died for sinners, and sinners who want their ticket to ride and that's all.
Indeed, and whats more ... They believe that if everyone(all mankind) eventually gets a ticket for salvation, then their ticket for salvation isn't as valuable as it would be if only a few(some of mankind) gets a ticket for salvation. Their idea is that somehow the salvation of all people cheapens their own salvation.
My last post was past my bedtime, but now that I am awake.....
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Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Is it just a coincidence that the doctrine of Apocatastasts(or at least a popular form of it) was declared anathema while the doctrine of ET was declared the orthodox position of the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the sixth century, and that the dark ages commenced at the exact same time? I don't think so ...
Food for thought ...
Actually nearly all historians mark the beginning of the dark ages at the fall of Rome in 476AD. The fall of Rome and Barabarian invasions in western Europe, and the destruction of society were the cause, not some pronouncement of the Church.
The Dark Ages as a term has undergone many evolutions; its definition depends on who is defining it. Indeed, modern historians no longer use the term because of its negative connotation. Generally, the Dark Ages referred to the period of time ushered in by the fall of the Western Roman Empire. This took place when the last Western emperor, Romulus Augustulus, was deposed by Odoacer, a barbarian. AD 476 was the time of this event.
My last post was past my bedtime, but now that I am awake.....
Actually nearly all historians mark the beginning of the dark ages at the fall of Rome in 476AD. The fall of Rome and Barabarian invasions in western Europe, and the destruction of society were the cause, not some pronouncement of the Church.
The Dark Ages as a term has undergone many evolutions; its definition depends on who is defining it. Indeed, modern historians no longer use the term because of its negative connotation. Generally, the Dark Ages referred to the period of time ushered in by the fall of the Western Roman Empire. This took place when the last Western emperor, Romulus Augustulus, was deposed by Odoacer, a barbarian. AD 476 was the time of this event.
I did not mention the specific century the dark ages began. However, even dating the beginning of the dark ages at 476 is making the same point, because it was the very end of the 4th century and the beginning of the 5th century that Rome made Christianity the state religion, and during that time the catechetical school of Rome in Carthage became the center of the Christian theological world. And which school was the only school in the first 5 centuries which taught Eternal Torture? The school of Rome in Carthage ...
Indeed, and in the 7th century the school at Carthage had so enveloped the rest of the Christian theological world under its influence that they were finally able to make anathema the most popular form of apocatastasis and declare the orthodox teaching to be ET. And that is when it all really went down hill ...
Peace ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 08-26-2010 at 10:38 AM..
Also, note that it was Augustine of Hippo(November 13, 354 – August 28, 430), who was one of the most influential persons in the Christian world at the time, the same man who taught unbaptized babies go to hell for ever upon death, who spearheaded the Eternal Torture movement at that time, and whose writings influenced the Christian theologians who in the 7th century declared the most popular form of Apocatastasis as anathema and thus declared the doctrine of Eternal Torment as the orthodox teaching of the Church.
It all fits together rather nicely don't you think?
I always wonder why you people cannot ever move past what you 'think' you know. Where is the Spiritual growth. Is that where the Spirit left off, at UR?
I know for myself, it has. It has moved past the Dialectic, from ET to UR, and found the place where God the Father's Grace begins,,,and ends. And it does happen to end for the wicked, without His Son. Gone, forever...
But where is the CONTINUED spiritual growth at from you all?
Really?
How about this country. How about some REAL history. How about money, and who controls it. How about how YOU are a slave, and do not realize it.
How about the Revolutionary who defied the Roman Empire, as well as the Israel Empire by proclaiming their lack of suppposed authority over Him?
The Kingdom is NOW, and ALWAYS has been. It is built on the foundation of love. It has LAWS, stemming from this LOVE. And if you break these LAWS, then there is a price to pay. You have an intercessor, IN, and ONLY IN, Jesus the Christ.
When REAL Christians start actually living like REAL Christians, then perhaps this world will change,,,but first there will be hell to pay with the beasts who control this system(kosmos). They will war with us, and even kill us. Religion and Politics,,both taboo to even talk about. Both are beasts who desire control over others, to plunder them. Jesus FREED you all.
They tried for the first few hundred years after Christ ascended. They then succumbed that they could NEVER wipe them Christians out, so they married the church, and defiled her, liike a harlot.
The TRUE Church, who is the BRIDE of Christ will soon be standing tall, and made ready for her Groom. Then you will see what happens next. But for the sake of our King, grow up! Learn the Wisdom from above, and prepare.
I always wonder why you people cannot ever move past what you 'think' you know. Where is the Spiritual growth. Is that where the Spirit left off, at UR?
I know for myself, it has. It has moved past the Dialectic, from ET to UR, and found the place where God the Father's Grace begins,,,and ends. And it does happen to end for the wicked, without His Son. Gone, forever...
But where is the CONTINUED spiritual growth at from you all?
Really?
How about this country. How about some REAL history. How about money, and who controls it. How about how YOU are a slave, and do not realize it.
How about the Revolutionary who defied the Roman Empire, as well as the Israel Empire by proclaiming their lack of suppposed authority over Him?
The Kingdom is NOW, and ALWAYS has been. It is built on the foundation of love. It has LAWS, stemming from this LOVE. And if you break these LAWS, then there is a price to pay. You have an intercessor, IN, and ONLY IN, Jesus the Christ.
When REAL Christians start actually living like REAL Christians, then perhaps this world will change,,,but first there will be hell to pay with the beasts who control this system(kosmos). They will war with us, and even kill us. Religion and Politics,,both taboo to even talk about. Both are beasts who desire control over others, to plunder them. Jesus FREED you all.
They tried for the first few hundred years after Christ ascended. They then succumbed that they could NEVER wipe them Christians out, so they married the church, and defiled her, liike a harlot.
The TRUE Church, who is the BRIDE of Christ will soon be standing tall, and made ready for her Groom. Then you will see what happens next. But for the sake of our King, grow up! Learn the Wisdom from above, and prepare.
LOL ... Real Christian aye? And what do real Christians act like Hotinaz? Do real Christians relish the thought of the people who persecute them being tortured in hell as payment for their wicked ways? Is that what real Christians do? Do real Christians think about how they are slaves to the system and how rich satanists control their country, all the time praying for destruction to come upon them? ...
Realy Christians love their enemies and bless those who persecute them and pray for those who spitefully abuse them and do not envy or disdain the wicked for their wickedness but in truth desire them to receive repentance and mercy so that we can all finally live in a world of peace. They can have this world, i don't want it ... And i dont envy them their power and riches in this world, because ours is the world to come, wherein we shall rule those who now rule over us, but we will rule in mercy and in grace, where they have ruled in wrath and in violence ...
But we digress, shall we stick with the OP for now, lest it be closed so early?
LOL ... Real Christian aye? And what do real Christians act like Hotinaz? Do real Christians relish the thought of the people who persecute them being tortured in hell as payment for their wicked ways? Is that what real Christians do? Do real Christians think about how they are slaves to the system and how rich satanists control their country, all the time praying for destruction to come upon them? ...
They can have this world, i don't want it ... And i dont envy them Real Christians love their enemies and bless those who persecute them and pray for those who spitefully abuse them and do not envy or disdain the wicked for their wickedness but in truth desire them to receive repentance and mercy so that we can all finally live in a world of peace. their power and riches in this world, because ours is the world to come, wherein we shall rule those who now rule over us, but we will rule in mercy and in grace, where they have ruled in wrath and in violence ...
But we digress, shall we stick with the OP for now, lest it be closed so early?
Peace ...
We are being molded into the image of our creator. The creator doesn't torture his enemies. At least, I hope not. I want to learn to love.
Well, it wasn't an attack, for sure. I am sure you are a GREAT Christian. I just wish we, as Christians, could put aside the doctrinal disputes, and start living like REAL Christians.
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And what do real Christians act like Hotinaz?
Like they actually, HAVE a King, and not succumb to the rules and dictates of this present evil worldly system, out of fear of persecution. We are called NOT to FEAR them.
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Do real Christians relish the thought of the people who persecute
them being tortured in hell as payment for their wicked ways?
Nope. I would hope not.
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Is that what real Christians do?
Since Jesus and the Apostles are our example, then absolutely not.
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Do real Christians think about how they are slaves to the system and how rich satanists control their country, all the time praying for destruction to come upon them? ...
No, again I would hope not. But, at the same time, we do NOT live in the "dark ages". I agree there are dark age doctrines out there, but that doesn't mean we could nor should live like we are a part of it, either.
See what I mean? Where is the unity of the faith? Where is the community? Where is the Kingdom? If it is indeed located within, then should you not be able to see pockets of it located somewhere, where people live in harmony, serving their King?
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Real Christians love their enemies and bless those who persecute them and pray for those who spitefully abuse them and do not envy or disdain the wicked for their wickedness but in truth desire them to receive repentance and mercy so that we can all finally live in a world of peace.
Agreed, but they cannot do this alone. Our country, as bad as it was early on, was indeed founded upon Christian principles. Yes, there were MAJOR issues that needed ironing out, and were. But many many others have taken their place. Where we went from a few MAJOR issues, now we have thousands of MINOR issues which have helped enslave us to this beast. We have let it get out of control. Our parents and their parents have done the same. We let education be dictated by those who didn't profess in God. We let politicians rule without Godly fear, although they were intended to serve US, the people.
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They can have this world, i don't want it ...
Why? It was given to you freely. And although you were enslaved by it, you have been SET FREE. In fact, it was Jesus the Christs' mandate. It is God's creation, and it is beautiful and good. It is yours, whether you like it or not.
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And i don't envy them their power and riches in this world, because ours is the world to come, wherein we shall rule those who now rule over us, but we will rule in mercy and in grace, where they have ruled in wrath and in violence ...
There is NO world to come, like you are thinking. This world is GOOD. Read Genesis. With everyone thinking that this world isn't good enough, or corrupt enough, they have given it over to the devil, to run, even over their lives. How pathetic is this? It sure as heck isn't what God intended.
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But we digress, shall we stick with the OP for now, lest it be closed so early?
Na, it won't be closed unless we get ugly,,which we won't. You and I will refrain from that, out of love for one another,,,,deal?
We are being molded into the image of our creator. The creator doesn't torture his enemies. At least, I hope not. I want to learn to love.
Loving is the EASY part. It is letting go of the garbage that gets in the way of the love that is the HARD part.
You ARE molded after His image, already. Genesis 1:27
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