Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
"Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them; He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified."
Many release themselves from any responsibility and crucify the innocent. But any attempt to satisfy the crowd comes only at the expense of another.
Do you know: The message from the beginning was primarily that of eternal life, however, the theme of eternal punishment emerged from the dualistic nature of men, a mixture of good and evil;
innately of the flesh and through that which has been taught or learned – traditionally, whereas, many things have become Syncretistic, even the Bible or the so called, Scriptures.
Biblical napalm, derived from the minds of men is ash ugly. A reward winning at all cost mentality of men, but the real issue for many seems to be, "What do we do with those who refuse to repent
of their ways, as a consequence for rejecting the truth based on their own self-determination, or who are already elected to Eternal torment, damnation, or Annihilation within the framework and
mindset of man’s sacrificial systems of justice without mercy?"
Is God's system of justice with mercy, inferior?
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."
The real purpose of Christ is to correct your unbelief, as we pass through the death of men to life; for in him there is no darkness. All will emerge through the light and fire of Christ, as he quenches
the false flames of Moloch within the thoughts of depraved men. Let us move beyond the level of reasoning to that of love and knowing which comes from the awakening of the Spirit.
Then what your saying is that I'm to believe (if UR is to be truthful) that God who has the power to "save all" despite people's rejection, doesn't have the same power to keep man from adding or taking away from scriptures
Twin That is a straw man, this has nothing to do with UR or ET; it has to do with people adding to scripture.
We read in Revelation a warning to anyone who would add to or take away from the prophesy of the book of Revelation. Now if God saw fit to put this warning in that book is it not obvious He knew that people would be tempted to do just that?
Just because God does not want people to do something does not mean people won’t do it.
And history proves that man has tampered with the scripture.
Witness 1Jn.5:7
Witness Mk.16:9-20
Neither of which are in the oldest manuscripts.
Both are an interpolation; added to scripture at a later date.
You might not like it but those are the FACTS.
So as history proves that man has added to scripture, how then is the bible the WORD of God?
Did the bible die for you?
Does the bible save you from your sins?
People really need to stop worshiping the bible an start worshiping Jesus Christ for He is the ONLY one with the words of eternal life.
It would seem that you don't even make an effort to comprehend what is said to you. That is your choice.
Regarding 1 John 5:7, it is the consensus of the majority of scholars is that 1 John 5:7 was an interpolation and doesn't belong in the Bible. There is however still controversy over this as can be seen from the following two sources. The first argues that the Jonannine comma (1 John 5:7) belongs in the Bible, and the second one argues against it.
Better translations such as the New American Standard Bible do not include the disputed passage.
So now only the New American Standard Bible is the WORD of God and all other bible that have that passage are not.
Quote:
Just as an aside point, whether the passage is a legimate part of the Bible or not, what it says is true and so changes nothing of doctrinal importance.
Well that is very debatable, it seems to me people are allowed to add to the scriptures as long as they agree with your understanding of them. So all of a sudden this interpolation becomes the WORD of God even though it is an addition made by man.
Like I said you want your cake and eat it to.
Quote:
As for your continued insistance that Jesus corrected Moses concerning divorce, you are wrong and I provided a link with regard to that in post #103. Of course with your aversion to 'links' and the information they provide, you may well have not even gone into it.
Yes and the link, like you are dead wrong and every reader can see this.
Again
Moses says
Deuteronomy 23:21-23
21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. 22 But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee. 23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
Jesus corrects Moses
Matthew 5:33-44
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Moses says
Leviticus 24:19-20
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
Jesus corrects Moses
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
You will note Jesus never said the scriptures say from old time an eye for an eye, He said ye have heard that it hath been said, Even Jesus did not deem what Moses had written to be scripture.
"Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them; He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified."
Many release themselves from any responsibility and crucify the innocent. But any attempt to satisfy the crowd comes only at the expense of another.
Do you know: The message from the beginning was primarily that of eternal life, however, the theme of eternal punishment emerged from the dualistic nature of men, a mixture of good and evil;
innately of the flesh and through that which has been taught or learned – traditionally, whereas, many things have become Syncretistic, even the Bible or the so called, Scriptures.
Biblical napalm, derived from the minds of men is ash ugly. A reward winning at all cost mentality of men, but the real issue for many seems to be, "What do we do with those who refuse to repent
of their ways, as a consequence for rejecting the truth based on their own self-determination, or who are already elected to Eternal torment, damnation, or Annihilation within the framework and
mindset of man’s sacrificial systems of justice without mercy?"
Is God's system of justice with mercy, inferior?
"I desire mercy, not sacrifice."
The real purpose of Christ is to correct your unbelief, as we pass through the death of men to life; for in him there is no darkness. All will emerge through the light and fire of Christ, as he quenches
the false flames of Moloch within the thoughts of depraved men. Let us move beyond the level of reasoning to that of love and knowing which comes from the awakening of the Spirit.
So now only the New American Standard Bible is the WORD of God and all other bible that have that passage are not.
Statements like that show that you have no interest in trying to understand the truth.
Quote:
Well that is very debatable, it seems to me people are allowed to add to the scriptures as long as they agree with your understanding of them. So all of a sudden this interpolation becomes the WORD of God even though it is an addition made by man.
Like I said you want your cake and eat it to.
No, the trinity is not debatable. It is fact. It is only the cults that deny the reality of the triune God.
And again, to make such statements about being 'allowed to add to the scriptures as long as they agree with your understanding of them' indicates no desire to listen to the facts, and/or show an inability to comprehend what is said to you.
Quote:
Yes and the link, like you are dead wrong and every reader can see this.
Again
Moses says
Deuteronomy 23:21-23
21 When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. 22 But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee. 23 That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.
Jesus corrects Moses
Matthew 5:33-44
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
Moses says
Leviticus 24:19-20
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him; 20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again.
Jesus corrects Moses
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
You will note Jesus never said the scriptures say from old time an eye for an eye, He said ye have heard that it hath been said, Even Jesus did not deem what Moses had written to be scripture.
Moses didn't create the law. It was given to him By God for the Hebrew people. The Mosaic Law established laws of conduct by which national Israel was to conduct itself, with laws being given in many areas. Laws pertaining to health, hygene, justice and other areas. Simply look through the book of Leviticus and look at all the passages where the Lord spoke to Moses with regard to the law.
Specifically, with regard to the law concerning an eye for an eye, simply read Leviticus 24:13 where it starts off saying 'Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying ' and goes though a few things until in verse 17 it says, 'And if a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death. 18] And the one who takes the life of an animal shall make it good, life for life. 19] 'And if a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him; 20] FRACTURE FOR FRACTURE, EYE FOR EYE, TOOTH FOR TOOTH; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. God gave this law to Israel for the purpose of insuring that the punishment didn't exceed the crime.
Can you grasp the fact that since God gave the law to Moses, then Jesus was not correcting Moses? The law concerning an eye for an eye was a part of the legal justice system by which Israel was to function under. And again, it was given by God to Moses. Jesus was referring to not taking personal revenge.
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-04-2010 at 08:23 PM..
Statements like that show that you have no interest in trying to understand the truth.
Hardly I started this conversation by saying
I had to laugh at this one, nowhere does it say the bible is inspired or God-breathed. Talk about adding ones own beleif into the scriptures.
Which bible is the one that is inspired?
The KJV
The NIV
The amplified
The septugent which has other books that are not found in the KJV or some of the newer versions
The etheopian bible, which contains the book of enoch
Young's litteral translation
The Roman Catholic bible which has many other books that are not in the KJV or some of the newer versions
Need I go on?
And you made a challenge of those statements
And now that I have proven you incorrect by showing you in history that scripture has been added to and taken away, therefore what is in our bibles is not the unadulterated WORD of God you accuse me of having no interest in the truth.
You stated that a Better translations such as the New American Standard Bible do not include the disputed passage.
And did not even realise that by stating this you put this version of the bible ahead of every other version. Thus making it the WORD of God. Now as this bible, which does not have 1 JN.5:7 in it and other bible do obviously the other bibles have been tampered with, thus they cannot be deemed the WORD of God. Are you following me so far?
Anyway, by having bibles some with different scriptures and some without those scriptures goes to prove my point that the bible is NOT the WORD of God as it has been tampered with by man. This is a FACT and I proved it by showing this tampering in history.
So you can go ahead and believe that the tampering of men is the WORD of God if you like but you do so to your own detriment.
Quote:
No, the trinity is not debatable. It is fact. It is only the cults that deny the reality of the triune God.
, try telling that to Justin Martyr the disciple of John who did not believe in the trinity. I would think being John’s disciple would have given Justin a far better understanding of what John was conveying then men today think John was conveying.
Quote:
And again, to make such statements about being 'allowed to add to the scriptures as long as they agree with your understanding of them' indicates no desire to listen to the facts, and/or show an inability to comprehend what is said to you.
Did you not say
Just as an aside point, whether the passage is a legimate part of the Bible or not, what it says is true and so changes nothing of doctrinal importance.
Thus indicating that it was ok for this interpolation because it agreed with the trinity, which you believe in.
So what you are in point of fact saying is that it was ok to add to scripture because it agrees with the orthodox teaching of the trinity.
But it is NEVER ok to add or take away from Gods WORD whether you agree with it or not.
Quote:
Moses didn't create the law. It was given to him By God for the Hebrew people. The Mosaic Law established laws of conduct by which national Israel was to conduct itself, with laws being given in many areas. Laws pertaining to health, hygene, justice and other areas. Simply look through the book of Leviticus and look at all the passages where the Lord spoke to Moses with regard to the law.
Specifically, with regard to the law concerning an eye for an eye, simply read Leviticus 24:13 where it starts off saying 'Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying ' and goes though a few things until in verse 17 it says, 'And if a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death. 18] And the one who takes the life of an animal shall make it good, life for life. 19] 'And if a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him; 20] FRACTURE FOR FRACTURE, EYE FOR EYE, TOOTH FOR TOOTH; just as he has injured a man, so it shall be inflicted on him. God gave this law to Israel for the purpose of insuring that the punishment didn't exceed the crime.
Can you grasp the fact that since God gave the law to Moses, then Jesus was not correcting Moses? The law concerning an eye for an eye was a part of the legal justice system by which Israel was to function under. And again, it was given by God to Moses. Jesus was referring to not taking personal revenge
You have not been listening, have I not showed that Jeremiah warned about the lying pen of the scribes? Yes I have mentioned it many times.
So did Moses really write those things or were they added to scripture by the lying pen of the scribes?
Look at those scriptures again
Matthew 5:33-44
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Note that Jesus did not say it is written in scripture,(like He does in every other instance where scripture is refered to by Him) but instead said Ye have heard that it hath been said.
I for one do not believe Jesus was speaking arbitrary but chose that wording for a reason.
Part of that reason being that Jesus did not deem what was said of old time to be scriptural whether it was spoken by Moses or written in the scripture by the lying pen of the scribes.
The other part being so that He could correct this view because people of old did not know the Father, being under the veil of ignorance, which veil is still present as long as one believes God is both evil and good. An eye for an eye is evil, the slaughter of innocent women and children is evil yet Moses or the lying pen of the scribes state God commanded them to do these things.
What it all boils down to is do you believe Jesus or Moses or the lying pen of the scribes who attribute these saying to Moses.
It really is no different then what the church stated about the crusades, that God commanded them to go on these crusades, they were just justifying killing others in the name of God. Moses or the lying pen of the scribes did the exact same thing.
Thus, showing man learned nothing from history, attributing things to God that they should never have attributed to God. Holy wars, ya right, they should have been called unholy wars.
But you cannot see this because you cannot see past the veil, because you insist on looking to others for truth, making tabernacles for Moses and Elijah, and do not take every thought people write about the Father captive to Jesus Christ. Only HE knows the Father, all others are but thieves and liars.
I had to laugh at this one, nowhere does it say the bible is inspired or God-breathed. Talk about adding ones own beleif into the scriptures.
Which bible is the one that is inspired?
The KJV
The NIV
The amplified
The septugent which has other books that are not found in the KJV or some of the newer versions
The etheopian bible, which contains the book of enoch
Young's litteral translation
The Roman Catholic bible which has many other books that are not in the KJV or some of the newer versions
Need I go on?
And you made a challenge of those statements
And now that I have proven you incorrect by showing you in history that scripture has been added to and taken away, therefore what is in our bibles is not the unadulterated WORD of God you accuse me of having no interest in the truth.
You stated that a Better translations such as the New American Standard Bible do not include the disputed passage.
And did not even realise that by stating this you put this version of the bible ahead of every other version. Thus making it the WORD of God. Now as this bible, which does not have 1 JN.5:7 in it and other bible do obviously the other bibles have been tampered with, thus they cannot be deemed the WORD of God. Are you following me so far?
Anyway, by having bibles some with different scriptures and some without those scriptures goes to prove my point that the bible is NOT the WORD of God as it has been tampered with by man. This is a FACT and I proved it by showing this tampering in history.
So you can go ahead and believe that the tampering of men is the WORD of God if you like but you do so to your own detriment.
, try telling that to Justin Martyr the disciple of John who did not believe in the trinity. I would think being John’s disciple would have given Justin a far better understanding of what John was conveying then men today think John was conveying.
Did you not say
Just as an aside point, whether the passage is a legimate part of the Bible or not, what it says is true and so changes nothing of doctrinal importance.
Thus indicating that it was ok for this interpolation because it agreed with the trinity, which you believe in.
So what you are in point of fact saying is that it was ok to add to scripture because it agrees with the orthodox teaching of the trinity.
But it is NEVER ok to add or take away from Gods WORD whether you agree with it or not.
You have not been listening, have I not showed that Jeremiah warned about the lying pen of the scribes? Yes I have mentioned it many times.
So did Moses really write those things or were they added to scripture by the lying pen of the scribes?
Look at those scriptures again
Matthew 5:33-44
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Note that Jesus did not say it is written in scripture,(like He does in every other instance where scripture is refered to by Him) but instead said Ye have heard that it hath been said.
I for one do not believe Jesus was speaking arbitrary but chose that wording for a reason.
Part of that reason being that Jesus did not deem what was said of old time to be scriptural whether it was spoken by Moses or written in the scripture by the lying pen of the scribes.
The other part being so that He could correct this view because people of old did not know the Father, being under the veil of ignorance, which veil is still present as long as one believes God is both evil and good. An eye for an eye is evil, the slaughter of innocent women and children is evil yet Moses or the lying pen of the scribes state God commanded them to do these things.
What it all boils down to is do you believe Jesus or Moses or the lying pen of the scribes who attribute these saying to Moses.
It really is no different then what the church stated about the crusades, that God commanded them to go on these crusades, they were just justifying killing others in the name of God. Moses or the lying pen of the scribes did the exact same thing.
Thus, showing man learned nothing from history, attributing things to God that they should never have attributed to God. Holy wars, ya right, they should have been called unholy wars.
But you cannot see this because you cannot see past the veil, because you insist on looking to others for truth, making tabernacles for Moses and Elijah, and do not take every thought people write about the Father captive to Jesus Christ. Only HE knows the Father, all others are but thieves and liars.
Fella, I think this has gone on long enough. You think that lying scribes altered the Bible to make it look like God gave the law to Moses. You're saying that Moses made it all up. That says quite enough about you.
Fella, I think this has gone on long enough. You think that lying scribes altered the Bible to make it look like God gave the law to Moses. You're saying that Moses made it all up. That says quite enough about you.
Funny all my post point to Christ and Him alone and I am the nut case, go figure.
But your right, its time to put this one to bed, and yes I beleive the lying pen of the scribes altered the scriptures and I proved it, but beleive as you will, I'll simply beleive Jesus' words over all others.
Twin That is a straw man, this has nothing to do with UR or ET; it has to do with people adding to scripture.
We read in Revelation a warning to anyone who would add to or take away from the prophesy of the book of Revelation. Now if God saw fit to put this warning in that book is it not obvious He knew that people would be tempted to do just that?
Just because God does not want people to do something does not mean people won’t do it.
And history proves that man has tampered with the scripture.
Witness 1Jn.5:7
Witness Mk.16:9-20
Neither of which are in the oldest manuscripts.
Both are an interpolation; added to scripture at a later date.
You might not like it but those are the FACTS.
So as history proves that man has added to scripture, how then is the bible the WORD of God?
Did the bible die for you?
Does the bible save you from your sins?
People really need to stop worshiping the bible an start worshiping Jesus Christ for He is the ONLY one with the words of eternal life.
pneuma,
What people really need to do is to stop finding reasons to dicredit God's Word wich is only found in the Bible. You're not going to find the answer to who died for my sins in any other place than the Bible.
Bascailly the bible was wirtten for thosw with fiath. Without faith most written things are usel;ess to include science and most other liteature of learning. Its not wireitten for those who do not presonally have fith other than the bibles word,IMO. My fiath comes from personal experience not just the bible which is a guide for a christian life.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
, try telling that to Justin Martyr the disciple of John who did not believe in the trinity. I would think being John’s disciple would have given Justin a far better understanding of what John was conveying then men today think John was conveying.
