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I thought I would start my own thread just to see what happens.
I am a "Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist." The Restitution of All Things See especially the very last paragraph on that link.
I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
Realizing that he is including everyone without exception, the following quote by universalist Dr. Leslie Weatherhead nicely sums up what I believe. I have had this quote memorized for many years and I have frequent occasions to quote it to others who have been blessed by it too.
“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today, even the agonies that nearly break our faith, the disasters that well nigh overwhelm us, shall, seen from that fair country where God’s age long dreams come true, bulk as little as bulk now the pieces of a broken toy upon a nursery floor, over which, thinking that all our little world was in ruins, we cried ourselves to sleep.”
Regarding “the son of perdition” (and other seemingly problematic passages) click on Bible Threatenings Explained
then scroll down to
THE SON OF PERDITION
Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-18-2009 at 11:33 PM..
Reason: spelling
I’m convinced that after we have thought the very best thoughts about God, we can be sure that He is even better than that because He is able to do above what we can even think, Ephesians 3:20. And IMHO I cannot think any higher thoughts than universal transformation.
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
That includes both the unexplained and unjustifiable suffering that we all experience in varying degrees, as well as what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement that everyone who needs it will experience.
I believe that God will eventually fit every unique individual into His master plan in a positive way that necessitates their unique temporary involvement in evil and suffering that will enable God to manifest, and glorify, and magnify the many facets of His character in a way that uniquely involves that person, and everyone else involved in that person’s life too.
I believe that God has both the ability and the intention to save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved, and He will not fail to do so.
I believe that God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will which is that which MUST occur, to eventually rid all of creation from suffering, will in every case, overcome the strongest will that is temporarily opposed to God's PRECEPTIVE will which is what His creatures OUGHT to do.
I believe the only mistake that I am probably making is in grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve this universal transformation through what Christ accomplished for everyone by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of his cross. That is the kind of God that I see in the Bible.
Wow! Thank you so much for sharing...
I was extremely blessed by this.
Thank you again for sharing, Rodger. God bless you, my friend!!
I believe that after our resurrection from the dead God will eventually somehow transform every second of everyone's suffering into something better that it happened.
Just had to repeat this again.
I absolutely believe this too.
With all of my heart... I believe it.
Hi Rodger,
Here's my tribute to one of my heroes - YOU. Some have already heard me share that after reading your testimony a couple of years ago I fully realized how much misery and pain the false doctrine of eternal torment has inflicted upon humanity. That's when I decided to no longer be involved with any organization which propagates these horrendous slanderous lies about our Father (even though I must say most - including the church I worked for - did it innocently).
It was scary to leave that particular position (full time worship leader) after just under 20 years - but am happy to say God has continued to bless even MORE after coming out of the religious system that really doesn't know the fullness of God - not by a long shot.
It was a small scandal but I certainly gave them something new to talk about...
When you really look at what you said one can see quite clearly who you believe. The above came directly from YOUR original post.
There is no "I" in God or Jesus. You see what you want to see, you believe what you want to believe and you glean from the scriptures things that are clearly not there.
There will be a high price to pay for those misleading others and leading them away from the truth of God's Word and straight into hell. Don't believe me? Then believe the Bible....lean not on your own understanding or the false teachings of others.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be falseteachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Put any kind of spin on the above scripture that you want, but my advice to universalists is to read the word for what it says, not what you want it to say.
Synonyms for destruction: annihilation, decimation, demolishment, demolition, desolation, devastation, extermination, extinction, havoc, loss, obliteration, ruin, ruination, wastage, wreckage Related Words for destruction: depredation, despoilment, despoliation; breakup, disintegration, dissolution; assassination, execution, killing, massacre, slaughter
And here is the greek translation for "destroy", just to save you the trouble:
Destroy = APOLLUMI (90): apo = away or from + ollumi = to ruin, undo, lose utility; to totally remove something to eliminate its purpose or usefulness; that is, to destroy it. In God's FCM (NT), Apollumi may represent either an action taken to "DESTROY" something, for something or someone to "PERISH" or the effect upon that which is destroyed to "BE LOST."
Rodgers post was not about himself it was about what he believes that God will do and the sovereignty of God.
I thought it was clear that Roger believes in God and what God will do.
God will
God will eventually
God has both the ability and the intention to save all
God's determination, within the wise counsel of His DECRETIVE will
grossly underestimating just how gloriously God will achieve
“God’s purposes are so vast and glorious, beyond all guessing now, that when they are achieved and consummated, all our sufferings and sorrows of today,
Where did I say it wasn't okay? This is a discussion board and when you post a thread like this you can expect to be challenged. This is not "universalists sub-forum".....it's called the "Christianity" sub-forum. But you wouldn't know that by the fact that universalists have taken it over. Not surprising since we are living in the last days and the deception is everywhere as predicted in the Bible but it still needs to be challenged with the real truth.
I'm challenging Rodger to think for himself and read the Bible by way of the Holy Spirit's leading, not a false religion's teachings. I don't think Rodger needs defending....obviously he can speak for himself.
When you really look at what you said one can see quite clearly who you believe. The above came directly from YOUR original post.
There is no "I" in God or Jesus. You see what you want to see, you believe what you want to believe and you glean from the scriptures things that are clearly not there.
There will be a high price to pay for those misleading others and leading them away from the truth of God's Word and straight into hell. Don't believe me? Then believe the Bible....lean not on your own understanding or the false teachings of others.
2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be falseteachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
Put any kind of spin on the above scripture that you want, but my advice to universalists is to read the word for what it says, not what you want it to say.
Synonyms for destruction: annihilation, decimation, demolishment, demolition, desolation, devastation, extermination, extinction, havoc, loss, obliteration, ruin, ruination, wastage, wreckage Related Words for destruction: depredation, despoilment, despoliation; breakup, disintegration, dissolution; assassination, execution, killing, massacre, slaughter
And here is the greek translation for "destroy", just to save you the trouble:
Destroy = APOLLUMI (90): apo = away or from + ollumi = to ruin, undo, lose utility; to totally remove something to eliminate its purpose or usefulness; that is, to destroy it. In God's FCM (NT), Apollumi may represent either an action taken to "DESTROY" something, for something or someone to "PERISH" or the effect upon that which is destroyed to "BE LOST."
BTW folks, my (sorry Ilene; I just had to emphasise that for your benefit ,) --- my website with my testimony is at http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/
Towards the bottom of my front page there is access to my guestbook that contains many inspirational testimonies.
It only holds 150 messages, then the oldest one is automatically deleted when a new one is added.
I think Christian Biblical Universalists will enjoy reading it a lot; Ilene? maybe not so much. :-)
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION? (http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction1.html - broken link) (part 1)
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION? (http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction2.html - broken link) (part 2)
Just What Do You Mean By The Word DESTRUCTION? (http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html - broken link) (part 3)
scaredofhell.com/interestingwords.html
(copy and paste this last one into your browser) It works. I tried it.
"What About how the Bible says that those who do not believe will perish?"
Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as “perish” or “destroy,” the original word is “apollumi.” The Greek word “apollumi” means to “to lose, or to be lost.” It is the same word Jesus used when He said
"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).
and
"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, “Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep”" (Luke 15:4-7).
This word, “apollumi,” is used to describe a sheep which was lost and then was found and restored. And Christ uses this same exact word in the following verse:
"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28-29). (The word translated as "Hell" in this verse is actually Gehenna, the city dump outside of Jerusalem)
The original word for “destroy” there is “apollumi” which means “to lose or be lost.” This verse is not speaking of an eternal annihilation of a soul, but of a temporary losing of the soul, just like the “lost” sheep that was later found. It is the same with all the times you see Jesus speaking of someone “perishing.” Such as in John 3:16:
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
A better translation would be “whoever believes in Him should not be lost.”
We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further “apollumi,” or being “lost” in the lake of fire, which is the second death. But God has promised to destroy all death once and for all and grant belief to all at the consummation of the ages.
Those who are “lost” or “perished,” are like the lost sheep. The lost sheep was perished, but the shepherd sought it out and restored it. We are all like the lost sheep before God finds us. Even now we are. We are all “apollumi”, or “lost and perished” as the lost sheep was. We are separated and alienated from God. But the lost sheep did not stay that way. And neither does anyone else. The Good Shepherd does not stop looking until He has found the last one.
The word perish is the same Greek word as "be lost."
The tense is, shall not "be in a state of perishing" or in a state of "being lost."
The first fruits of election (the remnant) are granted the gift of saving faith and will enjoy "aionian" age-during life, while the non-elect will experience age-during "kolasis aionian" which means age-during corrective chastisement. But the non-elect will also be saved when God's plan for the ages of time has been consummated and He becomes All in all. 1Cor. 15:28 Chapter Eleven
Regarding the most common argument that the same word for "punishment" is also used for "life" see the following: Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
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"destruction and perish"
