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Old 09-05-2010, 01:04 PM
 
621 posts, read 1,205,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
You seem to think that a requirement for being a good Protestant is that one despise Catholicism.
Not at all. You, DreamingSpires, seem to have a habit of making unwarranted assumptions about me. You ascribe to me positions which I don't profess to hold. I ask questions...you make assumptions. I think that says more about you than it does me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
I have some news for you -- not all Protestants think the Catholic Church is the "***** of Babylon" or somesuch; some Protestants actually respect Catholicism on its own terms whilst not wishing to become Catholic themselves.
I don't know how many times I have to say this to you, and other Catholics, on this board: I'm NOT anti-Catholic. I believe Catholics are Christians and I don't profess they are lost and going to hell. I don't go around viciously attacking the Catholic Church making false statements about it. I don't accuse them of being "idol worshippers", nor do I accuse them of "working their way into Heaven", nor do I think it is the "W***** of Babylon", or anything like that. I merely disagree with some Catholic teachings and positions, and I may question the reasoning behind those positions sometimes. But actually, until recently I had considered a conversion to Catholicism - and then I encountered some rude Catholics who made assumptions about me, telling me I only wanted to take something from the church without giving anything in return. But that Catholic didn't know what I was willing to "give" in return (as if we have to give anything to begin with, considering God's gift to us was free). Did she know I had considered becoming a priest? No. Did she know the level of devotion I was willing to give to the RCC, or how I would consider the different ways of serving within the church? No. What she succeeded at doing was turning me off to the church by her "loving, charitable Catholic attitude"...so I said "Forget it - I want nothing to do with it." But my mom is Catholic - and I don't discourage her from embracing her faith. I don't proselytize to her, nor do I demean her or try to confuse her by instilling doubt about what she believes. In fact, when she has a question about Catholicism, she asks me and I give her the best answer I know how to give in accordance with what the RCC teaches. That's the kind of person I am, DreamingSpires. I'm not going around saying "Catholics are heretics...they are deceived" the way you guys are doing about Protestants - and you do it despite what the Vatican has said about Protestants, referring to us as Christian brothers. Do I need to point out the part of your Catechism which states that?

I really wish you would back off in making assumptions about me, DreamingSpires. It's really getting old, and quite frankly it's annoying.
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Old 09-05-2010, 01:07 PM
 
621 posts, read 1,205,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by californio sur View Post
Can't we just get along?

LMAO!! You're not serious? In THIS place??

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Old 09-05-2010, 01:22 PM
 
1,468 posts, read 2,113,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shyspider View Post
Not at all. You, DreamingSpires, seem to have a habit of making unwarranted assumptions about me. You ascribe to me positions which I don't profess to hold. I ask questions...you make assumptions. I think that says more about you than it does me.



I don't know how many times I have to say this to you, and other Catholics, on this board: I'm NOT anti-Catholic. I believe Catholics are Christians and I don't profess they are lost and going to hell. I don't go around viciously attacking the Catholic Church making false statements about it. I don't accuse them of being "idol worshippers", nor do I accuse them of "working their way into Heaven", nor do I think it is the "W***** of Babylon", or anything like that. I merely disagree with some Catholic teachings and positions, and I may question the reasoning behind those positions sometimes. But actually, until recently I had considered a conversion to Catholicism - and then I encountered some rude Catholics who made assumptions about me, telling me I only wanted to take something from the church without giving anything in return. But that Catholic didn't know what I was willing to "give" in return (as if we have to give anything to begin with, considering God's gift to us was free). Did she know I had considered becoming a priest? No. Did she know the level of devotion I was willing to give to the RCC, or how I would consider the different ways of serving within the church? No. What she succeeded at doing was turning me off to the church by her "loving, charitable Catholic attitude"...so I said "Forget it - I want nothing to do with it." But my mom is Catholic - and I don't discourage her from embracing her faith. I don't proselytize to her, nor do I demean her or try to confuse her by instilling doubt about what she believes. In fact, when she has a question about Catholicism, she asks me and I give her the best answer I know how to give in accordance with what the RCC teaches. That's the kind of person I am, DreamingSpires. I'm not going around saying "Catholics are heretics...they are deceived" the way you guys are doing about Protestants - and you do it despite what the Vatican has said about Protestants, referring to us as Christian brothers. Do I need to point out the part of your Catechism which states that?

I really wish you would back off in making assumptions about me, DreamingSpires. It's really getting old, and quite frankly it's annoying.
Shyspider, since I have never met you personally I can only go on what I see in these forums. What I see is that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Catholicism. On a different thread you moaned about how Catholics don't evangelize about Jesus Christ. It was pointed out to you that Catholics tend to evangelize in a different way from Protestants.

Earlier you went off the rails at me here:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/chris...l#post15609603

You apologized for it (appreciated), but it nonetheless did seem to signal a pattern.

Now you are questioning why shrimpboat doesn't join the Catholic Church. Why don't you get off shrimpboat's back? Why can't someone say something positive about Catholicism without someone asking why they don't join it?

I know exactly what the cathecism says about my Protestant brethren because I have had to quote it to them on many occasion when correcting misinformation about Catholicism. Speaking of misinformation, here is some in your very post:

I'm not going around saying "Catholics are heretics...they are deceived" the way you guys are doing about Protestants

I certainly don't go around saying this about Protestants and I am a Roman Catholic. So please stop spreading misinformation about me and my religion.

In short, the reason I think you are at least somewhat anti-Catholic is because that is how you come across. If you don't want to be perceived that way, and are in fact NOT anti-Catholic as you claim, then bring your actions at this forum into accordance with your beliefs.
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:11 PM
 
Location: The Conterminous United States
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It seems to me that if you were truly called to become a priest what one person said would certainly not stop you?
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Old 09-05-2010, 02:52 PM
 
95 posts, read 161,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster View Post
THANK YOU.

I don't care what Wikipedia says. I've been notified by other Lutherans regarding those posts, too. I think because one person converts and goes to one church and then looks up some things on the internet they think they have a great knowledge of the church, when they do not.

First, Lutherans do not pray to icons. Just because they have carvings and paintings, they are not praying to them.

I have to laugh about the photos. Did you people think I worshipped in a barn? Never assume.

On August 15 my mother worshipped at Zion Lutheran Church in Massachusetts, where she has worshipped for 76 years. No one mentioned Mary. Not once. And it is ELCA.

I think that there were some assumptions made about me - explaining what an eucharistic minister is really took the cake - and now there is egg all over one's face. Never assume anything about anyone.

The Roman Catholics and the ELCA (never Missouri Synod and WELS) were becoming closer to at least an understanding, but when the ELCA decided to allow openly gay pastors in, the whole thing was lost.

I don't think you can really understand the background unless you have been there. My grandparents were a living example. My grandmother was German Lutheran and was tricked by my grandfather into marrying him. It was in the 1920s and he told her he was Lutheran. After the marriage she found out that he was Roman Catholic. They lived in animosity almost until the day he died.

I remember when they got rid of the Lutheran Hymnal in my church and my aunt stood up and said she would never say "catholic church" and my father standing up and saying that catholic means universal and they were not saying "Roman Catholic." Half of my family left after that and there always was that rift.

There is more to it than you realize, shrimp boat. Try getting communion at a Roman Catholic church. Or a Missouri Synod church, for that matter. Don't lie. Tell them who you are. See how that goes.

And do you know why?

Do you know what transubstantiation is? I noticed that was glaringly left out of your laundry list of differences between Roman Catholics and Lutherans.

You don't seem to understand as much as you think you do.

Roman Catholicism is a beautiful religion. I think you may be yearning for it. You need to look into these matters more closely.
I find your comments insulting that a former Lutheran who states his dislike for the Lutheran church would have the audacity to attack another Lutheran because I quote the Lutheran confessions, Martin Luther and Lutheran pastors [all Missouri Synod] just becauae you have an extremely anti-catholic bias. Maybe you need to get out more and see what the Lutheran church is like but my suspicion is that you would hate it because it is "too catholic."

Again you continue to state things that have been clarified: LUTHERANS DO NOT PRAY TO MARY! That has not even been an issue. That you react to icons and statues of the Virgin Mary in Lutheran churches must be hitting a nerve with you. But please do not attack my Lutheran faith and those who I have tirelessly quoted. You can reject the Lutheran Confessions but that means that you do not agree with the Lutheran church.

The Book of Concord - Augburg Confession:
Solid Declaration, article VIII.24:
"On account of this personal union and communion of the natures, Mary, the most blessed virgin, did not conceive a mere, ordinary human being, but a human being who is truly the Son of the most high God, as the angel testifies. Christ demonstrated his divine majesty even in his mother’s womb in that he was born of a virgin without violating her virginity. Therefore Mary is truly the Mother of God and yet remained a virgin"


In his sermon of August 15, 1522, the last time Martin Luther preached on the Feast of the Assumption, he stated:

There can be no doubt that the Virgin Mary is in heaven. How it happened we do not know. And since the Holy Spirit has told us nothing about it, we can make of it no article of faith . . . It is enough to know that she lives in Christ.

The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart. (Sermon, September 1, 1522).

[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures. (Sermon, Christmas, 1531).

Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother. (Sermon, Christmas, 1529).


". . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Ref: Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther's Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)

Martin Luther on Mary

Do yourself a favor and read. I have only quoted a small fraction of the Lutheran material on the virgin Mary. And please note these quotes; they are from Missouri Synod's Concordia Publishing House, from Missouri Synod theologians.

Again, I think your reaction is something outside the Lutheran faith. I was once a Baptist and well recall some of the most hateful comments about the Roman Catholic church that was both preached in church and commonly slurred by Baptist lay people.

I think this subject has most definitely brought out some deep animosity to catholicism even when all I am providing are Lutheran teachings.
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Old 09-05-2010, 03:09 PM
 
Location: The Conterminous United States
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Shrimpboat: You are clearly not reading my posts or don't understand them. To walk away from them thinking I'm anti-Catholic is amazing.

I will make it very clear. If I were to suddenly become a believer, again, tomorrow, I would become a Roman Catholic. Hands down. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

I think that you are reading past my posts and bringing your anti-Catholic family's baggage to the table. Take that up with them, not me.

Once again, for the gazillionth time. I have been to Lutheran churches for 47 years and in several different states and Synods. In fact, I have five children, four who I baptized Lutheran and one who I baptized
Roman Catholic. The youngest is ten.

I have only been an atheist a couple of years.

Like I said, you either cannot comprehend my posts or you are trying to be right, much like the other guy who is Roman Catholic but jumped all over me because he went to a Lutheran church with a girlfriend a couple of times. He was wrong. On the face the Lutherans and Roman Catholics look the same. I can say both Mass' in my head and all I have to leave off is the end of The Lord's Prayer for the Roman Catholic mass.

I can say Luther's Catechism off the top of my head, backwards and forwards. Believe me. I would have been beaten if I couldn't.

I think you have an understanding of someone that enjoys your church but converted for your wife and you don't really understand it.

For instance, why have you not answered my question regarding transubstantiation?
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Old 09-05-2010, 03:36 PM
 
95 posts, read 161,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiknapster View Post
Shrimpboat: You are clearly not reading my posts or don't understand them. To walk away from them thinking I'm anti-Catholic is amazing.

I will make it very clear. If I were to suddenly become a believer, again, tomorrow, I would become a Roman Catholic. Hands down. Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

I think that you are reading past my posts and bringing your anti-Catholic family's baggage to the table. Take that up with them, not me.

Once again, for the gazillionth time. I have been to Lutheran churches for 47 years and in several different states and Synods. In fact, I have five children, four who I baptized Lutheran and one who I baptized
Roman Catholic. The youngest is ten.

I have only been an atheist a couple of years.

Like I said, you either cannot comprehend my posts or you are trying to be right, much like the other guy who is Roman Catholic but jumped all over me because he went to a Lutheran church with a girlfriend a couple of times. He was wrong. On the face the Lutherans and Roman Catholics look the same. I can say both Mass' in my head and all I have to leave off is the end of The Lord's Prayer for the Roman Catholic mass.

I can say Luther's Catechism off the top of my head, backwards and forwards. Believe me. I would have been beaten if I couldn't.

I think you have an understanding of someone that enjoys your church but converted for your wife and you don't really understand it.

For instance, why have you not answered my question regarding transubstantiation?

This discussion is not about "transubstantiation"; that is a doctrine about the holy Eucharist that Lutherans do not accept. Luther wisely chose to not define the Real Presence of Christ in the Sacrament because it is a mystery that is beyond our understanding. Lutherans believe that Christ's "true body and blood" are presence in the bread and wine; that Christ is not symbolically presence but truly physically presence. It is the one thing that most Lutheran pastors require before a non-Lutheran can take the sacrament; the bottom line is that we must believe that Jesus is actually right there at the altar once the pastor consecrates the host and wine. Additionally Lutherans believe that we receive forgiveness of our sins when we take holy communion. All other Protestants reject the real presence and do not believe that there are any benefits to taking holy communion; it is merely a remembrance and symbolic.

But this discussion is on Mary not the Mass. If you want to start a thread on how Christians view the sacraments that would be a good discussion in my opinion.

Getting back to Mary; I found this article in the Lutheran Forum, a magazine and thought this quote was helpful:

"And where have we Lutherans been in all this? Well, our record is spotty at best. Martin Luther had high regard for Mary. He said, “She is worthy of the highest honor” and “her example should be followed.” Luther believed, even, in the Immaculate Conception of Mary, that she was born and lived her whole life without sin. But Lutherans can be justly accused of neglecting proper devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. Most Lutheran rejection of devotion to Mary has come from an anti-Roman Catholic prejudice. (I know of only one Lutheran church, a congregation in western Pennsylvania, that has the name, “St. Mary Lutheran Church.”)."

"Most Lutheran rejection of devotion to Mary has come from an anti-Roman Catholic prejudice."

Learning from Mary in Advent: A Sermon — Lutheran Forum

There are other articles that show how Protestant influences on the Lutheran church eroded devotion to Mary. Here's an interesting short article:
Saving the Virgin Mary from the Reformation - Catholic Herald Online (http://archive.catholicherald.co.uk/reviews/r0000421.shtml - broken link)

Here's an article written by a Lutheran pastor [not sure if he is Missouri Synod or ELCA] encouraging Lutherans to have more religious art of Mary:
Lutherans, Crucifixes and Church Art: Get to Know Blessed Virgin Mary Church in Wolfenbüttel Germany | CyberBrethren-A Lutheran Blog (http://cyberbrethren.com/2009/12/21/talking-about-lutheran-church-art-you-have-got-to-see-this/ - broken link)

Many Lutheran Churches in Europe are named after the Virgin Mary:
Visitestonia.com

Hate to belabor this issue but the Internet is full of Lutheran references to Mary.
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Old 09-05-2010, 03:52 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
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Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
1. Would such a request have to be uttered vocally?
I'm not sure it has to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
2. Why would it be necessary to pray only to Mary or to the Saints? Could you ask your own deceased parents to pray for you with the same result?
If one could be assured they're in Heaven I guess you could. In Catholicism you don't really have the "once saved, always saved" assurance that any individual dead is in Heaven. Still I do know of Catholics who "talk" to their deceased parents, but granted not in the form of intercessory prayer.

The miracles needed to make one a saint are, I believe, seen as confirmation they are in Heaven. All in Heaven are saints, but most of those we don't know if they are or not. Granted there's also a reverse, people who we think are in Heaven as saints but may not be. In general that's because a saint, those before the current process, is not actually a real person. In a few cases a "folk saint" became a saint because they were king or noble and their family pressed on the people to deem them saints even if they were scoundrels. I think in those cases God assumes you mean well or are concerned about a specific issue like mental health (As St. Dymphna, patron of the mentally ill, quite likely didn't exist) and accepts the saint's story is helpful to you or that you relate to it. Even in the cases where the person was real but maybe a jerk, St. Vladimir might fit, God might think you don't know that and are just thinking "I feel bad for Russia right now so I'll ask him to intercede as he's a Russian saint."
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:14 PM
 
Location: The Conterminous United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
I'm not sure it has to be.



If one could be assured they're in Heaven I guess you could. In Catholicism you don't really have the "once saved, always saved" assurance that any individual dead is in Heaven. Still I do know of Catholics who "talk" to their deceased parents, but granted not in the form of intercessory prayer.

The miracles needed to make one a saint are, I believe, seen as confirmation they are in Heaven. All in Heaven are saints, but most of those we don't know if they are or not. Granted there's also a reverse, people who we think are in Heaven as saints but may not be. In general that's because a saint, those before the current process, is not actually a real person. In a few cases a "folk saint" became a saint because they were king or noble and their family pressed on the people to deem them saints even if they were scoundrels. I think in those cases God assumes you mean well or are concerned about a specific issue like mental health (As St. Dymphna, patron of the mentally ill, quite likely didn't exist) and accepts the saint's story is helpful to you or that you relate to it. Even in the cases where the person was real but maybe a jerk, St. Vladimir might fit, God might think you don't know that and are just thinking "I feel bad for Russia right now so I'll ask him to intercede as he's a Russian saint."
Now there is a sticking point. James. That is my biggest irritant when it comes to Lutheranism. Faith. Works. It seems like they are starting to move toward works should automatically come from faith if it is truly there, but I firmly believe that there is an entire culture of hey, I believe so what I do doesn't matter. It is scary stuff. It's the reason my father could serve communion and then beat my mother in the car all the way home. Hey, Jesus died for his sins.

But I digress.

Saint Dymphna didn't exist? I use to have her prayer card. Huh. That's amazing.

I really don't understand the purpose of this thread other than wishing the Lutherans were more like the Roman Catholics. I do, too. But they are not. Just because you can find some position papers it doesn't change all of those congregants.
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Old 09-05-2010, 04:33 PM
 
Location: The Conterminous United States
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Saint Dymphna: Saint Dymphna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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