Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Shyspider, since I have never met you personally I can only go on what I see in these forums. What I see is that you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Catholicism.On a different thread you moaned about how Catholics don't evangelize about Jesus Christ. It was pointed out to you that Catholics tend to evangelize in a different way from Protestants.
I don't have a chip on my shoulder about Catholicism. That should have been evident in my response to you above. However, I admit I tend to have a chip on my shoulder about the attitudes of certain Catholics. Big difference. Kinda like what Ghandi said: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."
Perhaps you don't see how true my comment is because you are Catholic. Yes, Catholics put up with anti-Catholic nonsense, but Protestants tend to find themselves dealing with Catholics who have a disparaging, "snotty tone" in their voices. Case in point: You use words or phrases such as implying that I'm "unable to control my impulses", and now you've claimed I was "moaning" when referring to what I said in that other thread. I was not "moaning" at all. You're simply using hyperbole as an attempt to "chastise" me and "put me in my place". Read my post again: http://www.city-data.com/forum/15690798-post6.html You will see that I asked a question...I was not "moaning" that Catholics don't evangelize. I asked how much they were going out into the world and introducing people to the gospel. The only reason I left that comment was because you had posted a link to an article which talked about how Protestants were converting to Catholicism. I simply wanted to state that not all Protestants are bad, and that it was a non-denominational Protestant who introduced me to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
I might add that within that same thread, a moderator had to delete part of your comment because it was an attacking comment. Go back and read that thread again. You got defensive with me.
You apologized for it (appreciated), but it nonetheless did seem to signal a pattern.
Yeah, I apologized for it. Want to know why? It was because I didn't feel like going rounds with you. I was in a bad mood when I left that comment, and in hindsight I wouldn't have left it at all. But the sentiments I expressed in it remain the same. However, you seem to feel compelled to throw it back in my face, so I'll just respond by saying I don't believe it signals any kind of pattern with me. I believe I am consistent in how I respond to certain points of contention, and that's all I'm doing now. If I read something that strikes a chord with me, I respond. YOU are the one that seems to have a problem with what I say and you show that by posting disparaging remarks meant to "put me down" each time I express an opinion that disagrees with you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
Now you are questioning why shrimpboat doesn't join the Catholic Church. Why don't you get off shrimpboat's back?
Excuse me?? I am allowed to engage in a dialogue with someone in this forum, DreamingSpires. I do it in my own style, without attacking them. I question their positions and reasoning, and if that person feels I'm on their back, then they should tell me so. In the meantime, you need to butt out. As I said, your comments in response to mine are really starting to annoy me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
Why can't someone say something positive about Catholicism without someone asking why they don't join it?
Why can't someone express their disagreement with Catholicism without being reminded of how "correct" the RCC is?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
I know exactly what the cathecism says about my Protestant brethren because I have had to quote it to them on many occasion when correcting misinformation about Catholicism. Speaking of misinformation, here is some in your very post:
I'm not going around saying "Catholics are heretics...they are deceived" the way you guys are doing about Protestants
I certainly don't go around saying this about Protestants and I am a Roman Catholic. So please stop spreading misinformation about me and my religion.
Forgive me...I should have simply stated "Catholics" in place of "you guys".
But I might add you have referred to those who do not accept Catholic authority as heretics. Read here. You indicate that a Catholic who no longer accepts the authority of the Magisterium is a heretic, so how would you not likewise say the same thing about Protestants who don't accept that authority? Are you sure you didn't mean "apostate"? At any rate, I can point out other posts where similar things have been stated by other Catholics regarding Protestants. But as for "spreading misinformation about your religion", I'mNOT! So please don't accuse ME of doing something I'm not doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
In short, the reason I think you are at least somewhat anti-Catholic is because that is how you come across. If you don't want to be perceived that way, and are in fact NOT anti-Catholic as you claim, then bring your actions at this forum into accordance with your beliefs.
Sorry, I'm not changing my style of posting just because you are misreading me and making assumptions about me. Other people seem to understand what I'm saying just fine.
Last edited by shyspider; 09-05-2010 at 05:18 PM..
It seems to me that if you were truly called to become a priest what one person said would certainly not stop you?
It wasn't just what she said. I wasn't trying to give that impression. It's a long story, and off-topic. If you want to know more about it, feel free to send me a private note.
It wasn't just what she said. I wasn't trying to give that impression. It's a long story, and off-topic. If you want to know more about it, feel free to send me a private note.
Oh, okay. No problem. And that is extremely sweet of you to offer to tell me your story.
I don't have a chip on my shoulder about Catholicism. That should have been evident in my response to you above. However, I admit I tend to have a chip on my shoulder about the attitudes of certain Catholics. Big difference. Kinda like what Ghandi said: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."
Right back at ya, just change the phrase "certain Catholics" to "certain Protestants."
Quote:
Perhaps you don't see how true my comment is because you are Catholic.
Is this how you really think? If you don't agree with someone, or see some flaw in their reasoning, you place it down to their religion? Why not their race or gender?
Quote:
Yes, Catholics put up with anti-Catholic nonsense, but Protestants tend to find themselves dealing with Catholics who have a disparaging, "snotty tone" in their voices. Case in point: You use words or phrases such as implying that I'm "unable to control my impulses", and now you've claimed I was "moaning" when referring to what I said in that other thread. I was not "moaning" at all. You're simply using hyperbole as an attempt to "chastise" me and "put me in my place". Read my post again: http://www.city-data.com/forum/15690798-post6.html You will see that I asked a question...I was not "moaning" that Catholics don't evangelize. I asked how much they were going out into the world and introducing people to the gospel. The only reason I left that comment was because you had posted a link to an article which talked about how Protestants were converting to Catholicism. I simply wanted to state that not all Protestants are bad, and that it was a non-denominational Protestant who introduced me to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Who ever said "all Protestants were bad"? I think you have a tendency to read into things for some reason when the subject is "Catholicism."
Quote:
Yeah, I apologized for it. Want to know why? It was because I didn't feel like going rounds with you. I was in a bad mood when I left that comment, and in hindsight I wouldn't have left it at all. But the sentiments I expressed in it remain the same. However, you seem to feel compelled to throw it back in my face, so I'll just respond by saying I don't believe it signals any kind of pattern with me. I believe I am consistent in how I respond to certain points of contention, and that's all I'm doing now. If I read something that strikes a chord with me, I respond. YOU are the one that seems to have a problem with what I say and you show that by posting disparaging remarks meant to "put me down" each time I express an opinion that disagrees with you.
You actually meant it but you wish you hadn't said it? OK.
As far as interpreting my disagreements with you as "put downs" -- like I said, you appear to overreact to the mere presence of Catholics in the world including at this forum. If you don't want Catholics to stand up when their religion is being slandered or misrepresented or disparaged (however subtly), then don't discuss Catholicism on a non-sectarian internet forum.
Quote:
Excuse me?? I am allowed to engage in a dialogue with someone in this forum, DreamingSpires. I do it in my own style, without attacking them. I question their positions and reasoning, and if that person feels I'm on their back, then they should tell me so. In the meantime, you need to butt out. As I said, your comments in response to mine are really starting to annoy me.
OK. Fair enough. I will stay out of your dialogues with other individuals unless it involves an overt misrepresentation about my Faith.
Quote:
Why can't someone express their disagreement with Catholicism without being reminded of how "correct" the RCC is?
You seem to have a very big chip on your shoulder about the mere presence of Catholics at this forum. Maybe you are reading things into their responses that aren't there.
Quote:
Forgive me...I should have simply stated "Catholics" in place of "you guys".
But I might add you have referred to those who do not accept Catholic authority as heretics. Read here. You indicate that a Catholic who no longer accepts the authority of the Magisterium is a heretic, so how would you not likewise say the same thing about Protestants who don't accept that authority? Are you sure you didn't mean "apostate"? At any rate, I can point out other posts where similar things have been stated by other Catholics regarding Protestants. But as for "spreading misinformation about your religion", I'm NOT! So please don't accuse ME of doing something I'm not doing.
Sorry, I'm not changing my style of posting just because you are misreading me and making assumptions about me. Other people seem to understand what I'm saying just fine.
You are right - Ted is actually an apostate not a heretic. Mea culpa. How would I not "say the same thing about Protestants" who don't accept the authority of the Magesiterium? Easy. I wouldn't because they are not the same which is why I don't.
Post however you want, but unless all the Catholics leave, expect some backlash if you continue in the usual vein.
It seems you accept the authority of the RCC about certain teachings inasmuch as they line up with what you believe in yourself, but disregard the RCC authority when it comes to teaching things you don't agree with.
So, then, if you disagree with some positions of the RCC and its teachings, how is it you can be critical of other Protestants who don't accept the validity of certain Catholic, or even Lutheran, teachings with respect to, among other things, Mary and asking dead saints to pray for us?
Sorry, it's taken me a while getting back to your questions since I was a bit preoccupied dealing with strong opinions from a former Lutheran. I don't recall being critical of Protestants who do not accept any role of Mary. But I did recount growing up Baptist that the Roman Catholic church would come under fire on occasion and sometimes it was vicious and almost always distortions of what Roman Catholics actually believe. In reading online, I came across an abundance of material that totally surprised me; including that Calvin, one of the Reformers around Luther's time also believed that Mary remained a virgin and reluctantly agreed that she could be referred to as the "Mother of God" Calvin was the founder of Protestant churches like the Presbyterians. Protestant views on Mary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What I have come to understand is that the Church is 2000 years old and as Christians we can't just say that the early Christians were wrong. Even Protestants who do not accept creeds, like Baptists, do accept the foundation of the Christian faith that was formulated in the early centuries after Christ. And devotion\ high regard for Mary started fairly early among Christians.
Someone commented that because I came out of the Baptist tradition that I would automatically think I was in a catholic church when I became Lutheran because Baptists have a very different worship style. That is partly true and it was a bit of an adjustment but before I got married in a Lutheran church I was expected to take catechism classes. I learned so much about the Christian faith in those few months that my head was spinning. Christian instruction is more free-wheeling in Baptist circles; they don't accept catechisms, creeds and dogma.
A Protestant doesn't have to accept all Roman Catholic doctrines to be in some agreement with the Church of Rome. And for "conservative' Protestants like Episcopalians and Lutherans, there is more in common with the Roman Catholic church than with some other Protestant denominations. My wife and my sons [all grown now] worship in Baptist churches when we visit my side of the family; they feel a little awkward and miss not taking communion. But overall it is just another way of worshiping God. Roman Catholics have held to the ancient traditions of the Mass; Baptist prefer a hymn and praise free-style. Lutherans tend to be more like Roman Catholics but that does not mean we must agree on everything. Orthodox Christians are identical to Roman Catholics in many ways except they reject certain issues regarding the papacy.
Now that I am a solid Lutheran, I don't have the prejudices I used to have against the Catholic church because I understand things better and I accept the ancient teachings and worship of the early Christian church including praise to Mary.
I really don't understand the purpose of this thread other than wishing the Lutherans were more like the Roman Catholics. I do, too. But they are not. Just because you can find some position papers it doesn't change all of those congregants.
I thought that evolved due to a digression, but I guess the OP did mention Lutherans. Still I'm not sure a debate among Lutherans was precisely the purpose of the thread and it still doesn't have to be. However you know those cantankerous Lutherans. Can't go anywhere without them starting a rumble or a covered-dish supper or something
What I found interesting about this thread were reactions to the very subject of Mary and the research into the role Mary plays among Christians. I kind of wish some Episcopalians were active on this forum because they very likely would have some experience with Marian devotion. But the subject seems to be polarizing for some Christians with very strong objections. This seems especially the case with Lutherans and shows the divide among the more traditionally catholic versus the more Protestant varieties. I think it is less an issue among Lutherans in Europe who are more 'catholic' than Lutherans in America. I've read that Lutheran immigrants, especially Germans during the 1800's encountered resistance among Protestants who accused these European Lutherans of being "catholic". That seems to be fighting words among Protestants and some Lutherans toned down things to fit in with the other Protestants in their new country.
Right back at ya, just change the phrase "certain Catholics" to "certain Protestants."
The difference being that I can accept when people have a problem with the attitudes of "certain Protestants" - because I have problems with certain Protestant attitudes, too. Are you able to say the same about "certain Catholics", or do you believe all Catholics are above reproach?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
Is this how you really think? If you don't agree with someone, or see some flaw in their reasoning, you place it down to their religion? Why not their race or gender?
Read this part of my comment again and skip the orange highlighted part:
"I don't have a chip on my shoulder about Catholicism. That should have been evident in my response to you above. However, I admit I tend to have a chip on my shoulder about the attitudes of certain Catholics. Big difference. Kinda like what Ghandi said: "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ."
Perhaps you don't see how true my comment is because you are Catholic."
The whole point I was making is that you are Catholic, so you may not see that I don't have a chip on my shoulder about Catholicism itself - simply because, to a Catholic, any expression of disagreement with Catholic teachings is basically seen as anti-Catholicism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
Who ever said "all Protestants were bad"? I think you have a tendency to read into things for some reason when the subject is "Catholicism."
Oh come on, surely you're more intelligent than that. Are you honestly going to tell me you didn't understand my expression?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
You actually meant it but you wish you hadn't said it? OK.
Yes. At the time I apologized, I meant I was sorry for posting the comment because it was a disruption to the flow of the conversation. I'm human - I take potshots once in a while, and I was simply apologizing for having taken one at that time. HOWEVER, the sentiments I expressed were true, and I was NOT apologizing for that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
As far as interpreting my disagreements with you as "put downs" -- like I said, you appear to overreact to the mere presence of Catholics in the world including at this forum.
I see. No matter how much I may tell you otherwise, you won't believe me when I say I do not overreact to the mere presence of Catholics in the world. Apparently you don't read too well, because if what you say is true, I would be repulsed by my own mother. In fact, it seems like YOU overreact to MY presence here, as you were the first one to jump on me in this thread when I merely asked shrimpboat a question. You have prejudged me and declared me guilty. I wonder, how does it feel to go against one of the core teachings of Jesus?
You know what concerns me about you is that you seem to actually believe it's okay to use disparaging remarks towards others, such as accusing people of "moaning" about something when they haven't done that. You accuse people of being anti-Catholic simply because they disagree with some Catholic teachings. You infer that someone is "unable to control their impulses", and yet you yourself don't seem to have a problem making unwarranted assumptions about others. You use disparaging remarks as an attempt to shame others and castigate them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
If you don't want Catholics to stand up when their religion is being slandered or misrepresented or disparaged (however subtly), then don't discuss Catholicism on a non-sectarian internet forum.
You really need to learn how to love your enemies and bless those who curse you and do good to those who would harm you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
You seem to have a very big chip on your shoulder about the mere presence of Catholics at this forum. Maybe you are reading things into their responses that aren't there.
Knock it off. I'm telling you that I don't have a chip on my shoulder about the mere presence of Catholics at this forum. Unless you want to be so bold as to call me a liar, shut up. I'm tired of hearing the same old line from you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
You are right - Ted is actually an apostate not a heretic. Mea culpa. How would I not "say the same thing about Protestants" who don't accept the authority of the Magesiterium? Easy. I wouldn't because they are not the same which is why I don't.
Accepted. I only wish some other Catholics on here would admit as much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires
Post however you want, but unless all the Catholics leave, expect some backlash if you continue in the usual vein.
Likewise - expect backlash if Catholics continue to treat Protestants as anything other than the brothers in Christ they are referred to as in the Catechism.
When my great-grandparents settled in this country their Lutheran worship barely resembled what it is now, which does look like a Catholic mass. My proud ancestors came from Prussian, traveling with Roman Catholic Poles, but preserving their own faith and tradition. They would never have watered down the religion for anyone. Of course, they lived amongst the Roman Catholics. I guess that is why I can see the glaringly obvious differences.
I have certainly prayed to Mary for intercession but that is more because I lived with nuns and has nothing to do with being Lutheran. My pastor would tell me that was a fruitless endeavor.
I think your strong reactions are from me because I was accused of several things that I am not, and from a couple of people that seem to be carrying on a continuing argument. I don't think anyone got excited about Mary.
My father has an Anglican background and comes from the Scotch-Irish tradition. They do not pray to Mary for intercession, also.
Methinks that you might like the thought of being a Roman Catholic to get a rise out of your Baptist relatives. I live in the heart of the Bible belt and I know that they still think that Roman Catholics worship the Pope and all other kinds of nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shrimpboat
Sorry, it's taken me a while getting back to your questions since I was a bit preoccupied dealing with strong opinions from a former Lutheran. I don't recall being critical of Protestants who do not accept any role of Mary. But I did recount growing up Baptist that the Roman Catholic church would come under fire on occasion and sometimes it was vicious and almost always distortions of what Roman Catholics actually believe. In reading online, I came across an abundance of material that totally surprised me; including that Calvin, one of the Reformers around Luther's time also believed that Mary remained a virgin and reluctantly agreed that she could be referred to as the "Mother of God" Calvin was the founder of Protestant churches like the Presbyterians. Protestant views on Mary - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
What I have come to understand is that the Church is 2000 years old and as Christians we can't just say that the early Christians were wrong. Even Protestants who do not accept creeds, like Baptists, do accept the foundation of the Christian faith that was formulated in the early centuries after Christ. And devotion\ high regard for Mary started fairly early among Christians.
Someone commented that because I came out of the Baptist tradition that I would automatically think I was in a catholic church when I became Lutheran because Baptists have a very different worship style. That is partly true and it was a bit of an adjustment but before I got married in a Lutheran church I was expected to take catechism classes. I learned so much about the Christian faith in those few months that my head was spinning. Christian instruction is more free-wheeling in Baptist circles; they don't accept catechisms, creeds and dogma.
A Protestant doesn't have to accept all Roman Catholic doctrines to be in some agreement with the Church of Rome. And for "conservative' Protestants like Episcopalians and Lutherans, there is more in common with the Roman Catholic church than with some other Protestant denominations. My wife and my sons [all grown now] worship in Baptist churches when we visit my side of the family; they feel a little awkward and miss not taking communion. But overall it is just another way of worshiping God. Roman Catholics have held to the ancient traditions of the Mass; Baptist prefer a hymn and praise free-style. Lutherans tend to be more like Roman Catholics but that does not mean we must agree on everything. Orthodox Christians are identical to Roman Catholics in many ways except they reject certain issues regarding the papacy.
Now that I am a solid Lutheran, I don't have the prejudices I used to have against the Catholic church because I understand things better and I accept the ancient teachings and worship of the early Christian church including praise to Mary.
You really need to learn how to love your enemies and bless those who curse you and do good to those who would harm you.
I'm tired of this discussion as well, so I will suggest only one thing: if you really believe this then take your own advice and lead by example.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
