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View Poll Results: Can one be born again without being a disciple of Jesus?
Yes, they're two separate things 4 19.05%
No, being born again means you become a disciple of Jesus 17 80.95%
Voters: 21. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-13-2010, 08:23 AM
 
Location: West Coast USA
1,577 posts, read 2,242,692 times
Reputation: 3143

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Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
I don't think I've ever met a true disciple of Christ (?).

Most will resist if someone hits them in the face.
Well, I certainly understand what you are writing, but let's take a look at what you wrote, because these are common thoughts of many regarding whether or not those who follow Messiah are really following Him.

First, the Scripture about turning the other cheek is not about being slapped in the face, I am sure you understand; it is about how we respond to insults. This is a Hebrew idiom of that time for insults, i.e. it is about how do we respond to insults.

One thing the believers in Messiah allow way to much time for is growing up in Him, excusing our spiritually infantile thoughts and responses. But it is this very thing that those who are not believers allow them absolutely NO time for. They expect us, upon "being born again," to be immediately mature and to immediately know everything. They also expect us to respond in the way that they think we should respond, when they often don't know the whole story. They allow no reasoning regarding the whys. That just is not the way it works.

People need time to grow and mature, to study, to think, to repent of acts, to learn proper responses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Most will kill (if attacked) in order to save their own lives.
Messiah recognized times for "taking up the sword." Many think He is all about peace and love, but that is because they haven't read the Scriptures. Even He said that His cause would bring enmity between loved ones and others.

Further, if someone was attacking another, He would not expect us to stand aside and allow it. Rather, He would expect us to step in and save a life. In both His culture and in His practice, the life of an individual, a nation, and/or a beast comes first, before the Commands. IF you need scriptural reference, we can provide this.

And with regard to saving our own lives, many criticize believers that they holler about heaven but will do anything to save their own lives. Well, disregarding the fact that some of us don't believe heaven to be the goal of life, rather that we live this life out to the fullest, there are times to do whatever it takes to save our own lives and other times when we let them go. The Bible is jam-packed with examples of this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Most turn away (at least some of) those who would borrow from them and carefully weigh their options before giving "to him who asks of thee".
Once again, one must read what the book says. This Scripture, if read with knowledge, is about the believer's believing community, not about those outside of the believer's believing community. If we neglect those within the believer's believing community, then we stand guilty until we repent.

This Scriptures does not command us to give to someone outside of the believer's believing community. Most believers just do it anyway -- when it is the right and wise thing to do! Will I give to everyone outside of my believing community who asks? Absolutely not! In fact, at work, my boss told me twice in the same day, with firm words, looking me straight in the eyes, that I was to stop giving at the workplace, because I have been ripped off too many times. He and I both know that I tend to give too much with my heart, without my brain in gear. The last time, I was ripped off to the tune of well over $100, and it was Mr. Boss Man's last straw. Although it was not money from anyone other than from me, he had "had it." He was right.

Giving has to be done with careful thought. The more one gives to illegitimate causes, the less that one has to give to legitimate causes. And biblically, the giver's own family must come first (as long as we are not being enablers), with the believing community coming next.

Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Most give - but make sure they write it off on their taxes.
Don't you know that when we give, then report the giving on our taxes, we have more to give because of the tax returns? I will never understand when people decry this concept!

So, bottom line:
  1. We have to read the book with true understanding.
  2. We have to read the book with our minds open to the H Spirit for guidance.
  3. And rather than cutting them off as ignorant (!) we also must read the commentaries of the people who lived in the time that the book was written, in order to absorb the intention from the cultural level and to go beyond the language barrier.
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Old 09-13-2010, 11:00 AM
 
1,867 posts, read 1,518,569 times
Reputation: 135
Default What You Really Asking !!!!

Your probably saying can people be Christians for sure cause they got a cute biography or they got converts coming in a building and meeting all the time.

Your probably saying can people be Christians for sure if they going off in tongues and doing all kind of hand laying miracles of God all the time.

Your probably saying if their a best bookseller person and they sexually moral to their spouse all their life can they really be a Christian for sure.

Your probably saying if their the most liked person you know can they really be a Christian for sure.

One bible verse states what a Christian is well-------John 8:31.

Ask yourself , are they a Romans 6:1 believer when their done with
Ephesians 2:8 to preach ?

An example of continuing in his word.

Ask yourself , are they a 1 Peter 3:3 believer when their done with
marriage seminar talk ?

An example of continuing in his word.

Ask yourself, are they a 1 John 2:27 believer when their done saying
their not a scholar or theologian in God ?

An example of continuing in his word.

Ask yourself , are they a John 3:5 believer when their done telling
people to accept Christ ?

An example of continuing in his word.

Ask yourself, are they a Hebrews 4 believer when their done with the 10
commandments to teach and endorse ?

An example of continuing in his word.

Ask yourself, are they a 2 Cor. 6 believer or are they just interested in filling up seats in a meeting all the time ?

Ask yourself , are they really a John 5:39 believer or are they all about breaking a few bad habits and having a few good habits in Christ ?

Ask yourself , are they really a Matthew 4:4 believer or just a prosperity and be positive believer----1 Timothy 6 and James 5:20 ?

Examples of continuing in his word.

I should be supported after preaching this good--1 Cor. 9:9, 14, 18.

Amen to go on unconditional says Paul.
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:12 PM
 
9,670 posts, read 9,946,511 times
Reputation: 1916
Yes you can be born again but very limited in the disciple of Lord Jesus Christ, is long as you never reject Holy Spirit or blaspheme his gifts to you in your heart, but this limited salvations can have pit falls, like trying to forgive people in the spirit may come up not forgven, trying to overcome sin may come and bother you again for many years, trying to find miracles will have you blessing God for the natural and never the supernatural,,,, But the greatest thing about being a weak believer is that Jesus kind of loves you diffrent because Weak believers tend to Worship and Praise the Lord God better than strong Believers who have many gifts and calling who live in a lonely world asking God to help weak believers more and can be burdened for the weak believers and Praise the Lord Jesus less.... Be Blessed
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Old 09-14-2010, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,594,601 times
Reputation: 851
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen View Post
Well, I certainly understand what you are writing, but let's take a look at what you wrote, because these are common thoughts of many regarding whether or not those who follow Messiah are really following Him.

First, the Scripture about turning the other cheek is not about being slapped in the face, I am sure you understand; it is about how we respond to insults. This is a Hebrew idiom of that time for insults, i.e. it is about how do we respond to insults.
Really, it's about responding to insults?

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. 40 If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. 41 Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,


Well, sure doesn't sound like it's talking about insults, idioms aside. I guess it does get people off the hook about doing/being anything remarkable though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen View Post

Messiah recognized times for "taking up the sword." Many think He is all about peace and love, but that is because they haven't read the Scriptures. Even He said that His cause would bring enmity between loved ones and others.
Hopefully the sword thing is an idiom? Or else we will be chopping up "loved ones and others".
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen View Post
Further, if someone was attacking another, He would not expect us to stand aside and allow it. Rather, He would expect us to step in and save a life. In both His culture and in His practice, the life of an individual, a nation, and/or a beast comes first, before the Commands. IF you need scriptural reference, we can provide this.
Whose the "we"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen View Post
And with regard to saving our own lives, many criticize believers that they holler about heaven but will do anything to save their own lives. Well, disregarding the fact that some of us don't believe heaven to be the goal of life, rather that we live this life out to the fullest, there are times to do whatever it takes to save our own lives and other times when we let them go. The Bible is jam-packed with examples of this.
The bible is jam packed with an eye for an eye. Isn't this why Jesus spoke out against it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen View Post
Once again, one must read what the book says. This Scripture, if read with knowledge, is about the believer's believing community, not about those outside of the believer's believing community. If we neglect those within the believer's believing community, then we stand guilty until we repent.

This Scriptures does not command us to give to someone outside of the believer's believing community.
To be blunt - it seems that you (ya'll?) have found a way to make the message of Jesus completely unremarkable.

Basically you have brought us back to: Take care of your own, take up swords against those who oppose you etc etc.

It has "business as usual" written all over it.
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Old 09-14-2010, 04:52 AM
 
Location: West Coast USA
1,577 posts, read 2,242,692 times
Reputation: 3143
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
Really, it's about responding to insults?

38 "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. 40 If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. 41 Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you,


Well, sure doesn't sound like it's talking about insults, idioms aside. I guess it does get people off the hook about doing/being anything remarkable though.
Hopefully the sword thing is an idiom? Or else we will be chopping up "loved ones and others".
Whose the "we"?
The bible is jam packed with an eye for an eye. Isn't this why Jesus spoke out against it?



To be blunt - it seems that you (ya'll?) have found a way to make the message of Jesus completely unremarkable.

Basically you have brought us back to: Take care of your own, take up swords against those who oppose you etc etc.

It has "business as usual" written all over it.
Well, you can take it as you will.

Messiah's teaching was not to be different from Torah -- His teaching was "do Torah." When a commonly-accepted idea exceeded Torah, He taught to come back to Torah.

The only thing He taught about being "different" was that since the whole worlds does not accept and live Torah, it should be obvious that we do live Torah in a messed-up world: this is the only "difference" or "remarkable" thing He was teaching.

Oh! And the "we" in providing references? Most believers here can provide references for what I had written.
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,594,601 times
Reputation: 851
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen View Post
Well, you can take it as you will.

Messiah's teaching was not to be different from Torah -- His teaching was "do Torah." When a commonly-accepted idea exceeded Torah, He taught to come back to Torah.

The only thing He taught about being "different" was that since the whole worlds does not accept and live Torah, it should be obvious that we do live Torah in a messed-up world: this is the only "difference" or "remarkable" thing He was teaching.

Oh! And the "we" in providing references? Most believers here can provide references for what I had written.
Well, you are a sweet person but (like all of us) you have a distinct slant in your view. If all He was saying was "live Torah" then there was nothing new there at all.
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:21 PM
 
Location: West Coast USA
1,577 posts, read 2,242,692 times
Reputation: 3143
Well that was super sweet of you to write, but I'm not very sweet at all. You wouldn't believe how sour I am!
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:31 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 6,594,601 times
Reputation: 851
Quote:
Originally Posted by VelcroQueen View Post
Well that was super sweet of you to write, but I'm not very sweet at all. You wouldn't believe how sour I am!
Then you'll have to post something sour to convince me.
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Old 09-16-2010, 12:48 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,924,937 times
Reputation: 336
Or perhaps the question should read:

Can one be a disciple of Jesus without being born again?
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Old 09-16-2010, 01:07 PM
 
5,438 posts, read 5,917,306 times
Reputation: 1134
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Or perhaps the question should read:

Can one be a disciple of Jesus without being born again?
Either way, it dismisses this easy believism doctrine. Jesus' disciples continue in His word and they obey.
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