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Old 09-19-2010, 08:23 PM
 
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For example, if i was driving down the highway and decided to stop and ask someone for directions to my destination, and then that person chose to lie to me and give me bad directions, why would you blame me for following those directions?

Whose fault is it that i was deceived, mine or the one who deceived me? Why do you blame someone who is lost, when they cant help it because they don't know the way?

Please explain ...

Edit:

Also, if all humans are born under condemnation of the law of sin, and are naturally predisposed to being unbelievers and wicked by birth, then why do you blame them for being that way? Do you blame children born with mental retardation for being that way? Whats the difference?
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:27 PM
NCN
 
Location: NC/SC Border Patrol
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
For example, if i was driving down the highway and decided to stop and ask someone for directions to my destination, and then that person chose to lie to me and give me bad directions, why would you blame me for following those directions?

Whose fault is it that i was deceived, mine or the one who deceived me. Why do you blame someone who is lost, when they cant help it because they don't know the way?

Please explain ...
If I am going down the road, I might stop and ask advice, but the responsibility to get where I am going is mine, so I would have maps in the car.

We have something called a Holy Bible. We need to read it. There was a time when people did not have the Word to read.
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
If I am going down the road, I might stop and ask advice, but the responsibility to get where I am going is mine, so I would have maps in the car.

We have something called a Holy Bible. We need to read it. There was a time when people did not have the Word to read.
I think you are missing the analogy.

We as humans are born corrupt, and under the condemnation of the law of sin and death. The carnal human nature is like a person who is in a car without any maps. That is to say, it is like we are born in a car without any maps.

The point is from the get go, according to traditional fundamentalist Christianity, all humans are wicked and evil by birth, and must be born again in order to become righteous in Christ. Humans cannot choose to be good, because they are naturally evil. Only God can make us good, by transforming us and renewing us. If we could simply choose to be good and believe, we would not need to be renewed or reformed, would we?

Why do you blame someone for being what they are if they are born that way? Do you believe that they chose to be born that way?

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-19-2010 at 08:44 PM..
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:39 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,729,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
If I am going down the road, I might stop and ask advice, but the responsibility to get where I am going is mine, so I would have maps in the car.

We have something called a Holy Bible. We need to read it. There was a time when people did not have the Word to read.
Also, if you blame the wicked sinners and unbelievers for being born wicked and unbelieving, then why don't you take credit for your having chosen to be good and believe?

If you believe they deserve to be damned because they are responsible for being born wicked and unbelieving, then you must believe that you deserve to be saved because you are responsible for choosing to be Good and believe.

You must boast that you personally earned salvation, if you hold others personally responsible for not being saved.
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Old 09-19-2010, 08:42 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
If I am going down the road, I might stop and ask advice, but the responsibility to get where I am going is mine, so I would have maps in the car.

We have something called a Holy Bible. We need to read it. There was a time when people did not have the Word to read.
I just thought I would let you know that the WORD is alive and well.
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:05 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Because it is God who does, not humans. John 3:36, Romans 3:19 is not symbolic.

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
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Old 09-19-2010, 09:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Because it is God who does, not humans. John 3:36, Romans 3:19 is not symbolic.

John 12:48
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.


Romans 3:19
And we have known that as many things as the law saith, to those in the law it doth speak, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may come under judgment to God;

John 3:36
he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life, but the wrath of God doth remain upon him.'


Please quote a scripture that says God blames humanity for being born into sin? the verses above do not say anything like that. According to traditional fundamentalist Christianity, we are born under condemnation, and the wrath of god is on us from birth.


Romans 8:20
Creation was subjected to frustration but not by its own choice. The one who subjected it to frustration did so in the hope


Why blame the creation for the fact that God subjected us to to the frustration of sin and death and unbelief, when the scripture is clear that it had nothing to do with human choice or free will?

God subjected the whole creation to the futility of sin and death and unbelief, not in order to blame them though they are guilty of being futile, but in hope of restoring them to his good graces and thereby showing his power and mercy in judgment. It is gods good pleasure to be the savior of the world, that is why he subjected the world to futility of sin and death and unbelief. So that he can be merciful, and we can learn the value of love and mercy through righteous judgment.



Peace ...
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Old 09-20-2010, 05:18 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I think you are missing the analogy.

We as humans are born corrupt, and under the condemnation of the law of sin and death. The carnal human nature is like a person who is in a car without any maps. That is to say, it is like we are born in a car without any maps.

The point is from the get go, according to traditional fundamentalist Christianity, all humans are wicked and evil by birth, and must be born again in order to become righteous in Christ. Humans cannot choose to be good, because they are naturally evil. Only God can make us good, by transforming us and renewing us. If we could simply choose to be good and believe, we would not need to be renewed or reformed, would we?

Why do you blame someone for being what they are if they are born that way? Do you believe that they chose to be born that way?
Hi Ironmaw1776!
You are correct, imo. If a man is deceived or "depraved," he is then not able to "make an informed decision." This makes him free from responsability.
Those who have responsability are those who have been shown the truth!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 09-20-2010, 07:35 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,729,036 times
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Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Hi Ironmaw1776!
You are correct, imo. If a man is deceived or "depraved," he is then not able to "make an informed decision." This makes him free from responsability.
Those who have responsability are those who have been shown the truth!

Blessings,
brian
Interesting enough ... that is pretty much what Jesus said.


Luk 12:48
That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
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Old 09-20-2010, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 6,345,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Interesting enough ... that is pretty much what Jesus said.


Luk 12:48
That servant who knows his master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
It seems plain to me now, that God is the only One who can set man free from deception. The devil devours whom he will, but God is always above him.
Like a dog on a leash, who is allowed freedom as much as its master allows, so God allows flesh to have its way, until the time that He says, "enough!"
At that point, God will cast out the deception from the man He created, and reveal to him his need for the Love of God. Man then understands that God is a God of Love, not a mean Entity with a baseball bat.
And God reveals His Son within the heart of the man, and heaven within him.
This is the Kingdom of God, ime.

Blessings!
brian
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