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Rom 11:5-10
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal. ”So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.c What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written:
“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes so that they could not see
and ears so that they could not hear,
to this very day.
And David says:
“May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever.”
I fear we are going way off the subject of this thread, but since it is your thread, and you answered, I am curious: who do you see as the "elect" in the Scripture above?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Though God blinded the nation of Israel to his true identity, in the times of the Christ and the apostles, God had chosen a remnant of Israel to whom he revealed his true nature in Christ by grace. Those are the Israeli's to whom God revealed that Christ was his manifest image, and his only begotten son and the savior of the world. But the rest of Israel God blinded and hardened since the beginning when they required God to give them the law.
Ah. Here is your answer to my question above. So you accept that all those Torah-keepers (because they did not quit keeping Torah!) are those who wrote the latter Scriptures? And you understand that they continued keeping Torah? But you think that G-d gave them Torah as punishment???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
You see, it was the step father of Moses, Jethro, who taught Moses to give the Nation of Israel judges and later kings and to seek God to give them the law ...
Jethro was a Midianite high priest of Baal-peor ... And since the time when Moses accepted the tutelage of his father in law, Israel through Moses came to misunderstand the nature of God and his Character, and that is the reason why Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, as he misrepresented God in his anger and by striking the rock three times instead of just once ... From the beginning the Israelis understanding of who God is was influenced not only by the Egyptians, but by the religion of Baal as well, via the misrepresentation of Moses who was influenced by the religion of his wife's father ...
God never intended that man should be given a law, but the Israelis required Moses to go to God(As Jethro suggested) and ask for a law so that they could know how they might please him ... However, God knew before hand that Israel nor any other nation neither mankind in general could earn his grace, because mankind was then and is now corrupted by the mortal nature.
God gave Moses the law not so that Israel or humanity might justify themselves by observing the law, but instead he gave the law to convict men of their sin and inability to earn his grace. The purpose of the law was to convict man of sin and that was it, not to give them a means to save themselves which thing is not even possible.
So Moses coerced G-d, changed His mind, and so He gave Torah?? Wow. You really need to read more of the Bible than just the Apostolics. I am truly stunned, but if that's what you believe, then that's what you choose to believe. What can I write. Indeed, we will all learn the truth on the promised L-rd's Day.
However, in the mean time, you are missing the beauty of Torah.
I fear we are going way off the subject of this thread, but since it is your thread, and you answered, I am curious: who do you see as the "elect" in the Scripture above?
The elect in the passage is referring specifically to the remnant of Israel whom God elected to reveal his true identity in Christ.
Quote:
Ah. Here is your answer to my question above. So you accept that all those Torah-keepers (because they did not quit keeping Torah!) are those who wrote the latter Scriptures? And you understand that they continued keeping Torah? But you think that G-d gave them Torah as punishment???
Im a little confused by your questions above ...
Who continued keeping Torah? Do you mean the apostles?
When you say "keeping Torah" do you mean observing the Law?
Quote:
So Moses coerced G-d, changed His mind, and so He gave Torah?? Wow. You really need to read more of the Bible than just the Apostolics. I am truly stunned, but if that's what you believe, then that's what you choose to believe. What can I write. Indeed, we will all learn the truth on the promised L-rd's Day.
You seem to be misunderstanding my words. No one can convince God to do something that he has not planned on doing from the beginning of time. God knows the end from the beginning, and everything in between. There are no surprises for God, he is omniscient and everything works out according to the counsel of his own will, and nothing according to the counsel of the will of man(unless of course the will of man lines up with the will of God).
God never intended to give Israel the law in order that they might have a way of earning his grace. Gods intention in giving the law was always in order to prove to mankind that we cannot earn Gods grace, and in order to convict us of our sin and thus our need for his grace in Christ. It was Gods plan that everything happened the way that it did, from the sin of Adam and Eve and expulsion from the garden, to the final Judgment of the world.
I have been reading the old testament all my life. My father was a preacher and required me to begin reading the when i was eight years old , though i must admit its been a while since i read through it and my memory doesn't always serve so i must constantly refer back again. Also, i never really did read through all of the Levitical laws and the genealogies etc. ...
Quote:
However, in the mean time, you are missing the beauty of Torah.
Not at all, i do truly appreciate the beauty and inspirational value of the old testament. I simply recognize that the scribes were not always completely honest in their transcriptions as Christ accused them and that many anthropomorphism and anthropopathisms are employed throughout the Old Testament and that many Christians(and many Jews for that matter) do not understand the nature of those literary devices and so misunderstand much of what is written therein concerning the nature of God.
I agree that in the end we will all know the truth concerning all these things which we debate here on C-D. And i admit that i might be wrong about some of the things(if not all of the things) that i believe.
"A wise man knows that he knows nothing."
P.S.
I noticed that you will not spell the full word God or Lord, and this causes me to wonder if you are Jewish or if you simply take upon yourself the habit of not fully spelling those words or saying his name because of some other reason. Are you Jewish, and if not then why do you do that?
Peace ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 09-28-2010 at 06:52 PM..
The elect in the passage is referring specifically to the remnant of Israel whom God elected to reveal his true identity in Christ.
Im a little confused by your questions above ...
Who continued keeping Torah? Do you mean the apostles?
When you say "keeping Torah" do you mean observing the Law?
You seem to be misunderstanding my words. No one can convince God to do something that he has not planned on doing from the beginning of time. God knows the end from the beginning, and everything in between. There are no surprises for God, he is omniscient and everything works out according to the counsel of his own will, and nothing according to the counsel of the will of man(unless of course the will of man lines up with the will of God).
God never intended to give Israel the law in order that they might have a way of earning his grace. Gods intention in giving the law was always in order to prove to mankind that we cannot earn Gods grace, and in order to convict us of our sin and thus our need for his grace in Christ. It was Gods plan that everything happened the way that it did, from the sin of Adam and Eve and expulsion from the garden, to the final Judgment of the world.
I have been reading the old testament all my life. My father was a preacher and required me to begin reading the when i was eight years old , though i must admit its been a while since i read through it and my memory doesn't always serve so i must constantly refer back again. Also, i never really did read through all of the Levitical laws and the genealogies etc. ...
Not at all, i do truly appreciate the beauty and inspirational value of the old testament. I simply recognize that the scribes were not always completely honest in their transcriptions as Christ accused them and that many anthropomorphism and anthropopathisms are employed throughout the Old Testament and that many Christians(and many Jews for that matter) do not understand the nature of those literary devices and so misunderstand much of what is written therein concerning the nature of God.
I agree that in the end we will all know the truth concerning all these things which we debate here on C-D. And i admit that i might be wrong about some of the things(if not all of the things) that i believe.
"A wise man knows that he knows nothing."
P.S.
I noticed that you will not spell the full word God or Lord, and this causes me to wonder if you are Jewish or if you simply take upon yourself the habit of not fully spelling those words or saying his name because of some other reason. Are you Jewish, and if not then why do you do that?
Peace ...
I just wanted to clarify that i find much of the old testament beautiful and inspirational ... But not all of it, like Deuteronomy 13:12-16 ...
Deuteronomy 13:12-16 (religious intolerance)
If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
Or ...
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (rebellious children)
"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them,
then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown.
"They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.
Or ...
Numbers 35:22-27 (accidental death)
But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him, the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled. He must stay there until the death of the high priest, who was anointed with the holy oil. 'But if the accused ever goes outside the limits of the city of refuge to which he has fled and the avenger of blood finds him outside the city, the avenger of blood may kill the accused without being guilty of murder.
Or ...
Exodus 21:2-21 (slavery)
"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3"If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
"If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.
"But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,'
then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
"If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
"If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
"If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
"If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
Or ...
Deuteronomy 22:25-29 (rape in the country)
But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.
"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.
"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her.
"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,
then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
Or ...
Numbers 5:12-28(suspected female infidelity)
"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.
" 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"- here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."
" 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
Or ...
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (family members with different religious beliefs)
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Etc ...
All these parts of the Old testament, and all the other stuff like it i did not mention, i don't find to be particularly beautiful or inspiring. In fact i find them to be quite barbaric and twisted ...
Its interesting to note that Jesus must not have liked them much either, as he saved the woman who was discovered to be an adulterer instead of obeying the law.
I just wanted to clarify that i find much of the old testament beautiful and inspirational ... But not all of it, like Deuteronomy 13:12-16 ...
Deuteronomy 13:12-16 (religious intolerance)
If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. Gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the LORD your God. It is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt.
Or ...
Deuteronomy 21:18-21 (rebellious children)
"If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them,
then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown.
"They shall say to the elders of his city, 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'
"Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.
Or ...
Numbers 35:22-27 (accidental death)
But if without hostility someone suddenly shoves another or throws something at him unintentionally or, without seeing him, drops a stone on him that could kill him, and he dies, then since he was not his enemy and he did not intend to harm him, the assembly must judge between him and the avenger of blood according to these regulations. The assembly must protect the one accused of murder from the avenger of blood and send him back to the city of refuge to which he fled. He must stay there until the death of the high priest, who was anointed with the holy oil. 'But if the accused ever goes outside the limits of the city of refuge to which he has fled and the avenger of blood finds him outside the city, the avenger of blood may kill the accused without being guilty of murder.
Or ...
Exodus 21:2-21 (slavery)
"If you buy a Hebrew slave, he shall serve for six years; but on the seventh he shall go out as a free man without payment. 3"If he comes alone, he shall go out alone; if he is the husband of a wife, then his wife shall go out with him.
"If his master gives him a wife, and she bears him sons or daughters, the wife and her children shall belong to her master, and he shall go out alone.
"But if the slave plainly says, 'I love my master, my wife and my children; I will not go out as a free man,'
then his master shall bring him to God, then he shall bring him to the door or the doorpost. And his master shall pierce his ear with an awl; and he shall serve him permanently.
"If a man sells his daughter as a female slave, she is not to go free as the male slaves do.
"If she is displeasing in the eyes of her master who designated her for himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He does not have authority to sell her to a foreign people because of his unfairness to her.
"If he designates her for his son, he shall deal with her according to the custom of daughters.
"If he takes to himself another woman, he may not reduce her food, her clothing, or her conjugal rights.
"If he will not do these three things for her, then she shall go out for nothing, without payment of money.
Or ...
Deuteronomy 22:25-29 (rape in the country)
But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.
"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.
"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her.
"If a man finds a girl who is a virgin, who is not engaged, and seizes her and lies with her and they are discovered,
then the man who lay with her shall give to the girl's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall become his wife because he has violated her; he cannot divorce her all his days.
Or ...
Numbers 5:12-28(suspected female infidelity)
"Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man's wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him by sleeping with another man, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act), and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure- then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder offering to draw attention to guilt.
" 'The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the LORD. Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water. After the priest has had the woman stand before the LORD, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse. Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, "If no other man has slept with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you. But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have defiled yourself by sleeping with a man other than your husband"- here the priest is to put the woman under this curse of the oath-"may the LORD cause your people to curse and denounce you when he causes your thigh to waste away and your abdomen to swell. May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells and your thigh wastes away. "
" 'Then the woman is to say, "Amen. So be it."
" 'The priest is to write these curses on a scroll and then wash them off into the bitter water. He shall have the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and this water will enter her and cause bitter suffering. The priest is to take from her hands the grain offering for jealousy, wave it before the LORD and bring it to the altar. The priest is then to take a handful of the grain offering as a memorial offering and burn it on the altar; after that, he is to have the woman drink the water. If she has defiled herself and been unfaithful to her husband, then when she is made to drink the water that brings a curse, it will go into her and cause bitter suffering; her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away, and she will become accursed among her people. If, however, the woman has not defiled herself and is free from impurity, she will be cleared of guilt and will be able to have children.
Or ...
Deuteronomy 13:6-10 (family members with different religious beliefs)
If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, "Let us go and worship other gods" (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known, gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Etc ...
All these parts of the Old testament, and all the other stuff like it i did not mention, i don't find to be particularly beautiful or inspiring. In fact i find them to be quite barbaric and twisted ...
Its interesting to note that Jesus must not have liked them much either, as he saved the woman who was discovered to be an adulterer instead of obeying the law.
Peace ...
There is a lot of things in the OT that I know are not from God, you made a good list.
The bible is not inherent but it is sufficient to lead us to Jesus.
If you can't trust part of the Bible, what makes you think the rest is accurate?
Because we are intelligent, knowledgeable, have reason and logic, understand the unambiguous example of the "mind of Christ, "and have guidance from the Holy Spirit about what God has "written in our hearts" . . . which is far more than we have with other writings by human beings.
. . . Im a little confused by your questions above ...
Hee-hee-hee! I keep HOPING we are misunderstanding one another! That would make me much more comfortable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Who continued keeping Torah? Do you mean the apostles?
Yes, the apostles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
When you say "keeping Torah" do you mean observing the Law?
Yes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
You seem to be misunderstanding my words. No one can convince God to do something that he has not planned on doing from the beginning of time. God knows the end from the beginning, and everything in between. There are no surprises for God, he is omniscient and everything works out according to the counsel of his own will, and nothing according to the counsel of the will of man(unless of course the will of man lines up with the will of God).
I agree with this wholeheartedly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
God never intended to give Israel the law in order that they might have a way of earning his grace.
Right, but it was also for learning grace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Gods intention in giving the law was always in order to prove to mankind that we cannot earn Gods grace, and in order to convict us of our sin and thus our need for his grace in Christ. It was Gods plan that everything happened the way that it did, from the sin of Adam and Eve and expulsion from the garden, to the final Judgment of the world.
Agreed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
I have been reading the old testament all my life. My father was a preacher and required me to begin reading the when i was eight years old , though i must admit its been a while since i read through it and my memory doesn't always serve so i must constantly refer back again. Also, i never really did read through all of the Levitical laws and the genealogies etc.
So we're both PKs??
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
[Re: missing the beauty of Torah] Not at all, i do truly appreciate the beauty and inspirational value of the old testament. I simply recognize that the scribes were not always completely honest in their transcriptions as Christ accused them and that many anthropomorphism and anthropopathisms are employed throughout the Old Testament and that many Christians(and many Jews for that matter) do not understand the nature of those literary devices and so misunderstand much of what is written therein concerning the nature of God.
Can you point some of these out to me? And where Messiah accused the writers of the Torah of misrepresenting Torah?
I am Messianic. As you know Paul (with whom I have no gripe) wrote that our ethnicity and gender do not matter before G-d.
Oh! And I have no problem with G-d's decisions re the Scriptures you quoted in Post #123.
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What can I write. Indeed, we will all learn the truth on the promised L-rd's Day.
