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Would a LOVING natural father punish any child of his own, more than necessary?
My sincerest condolences for you and yours,
brian
Yes... I must've said "ETERNAL burning in hell" a thousand times and he still didn't make the connection between "eternal burning" and something a human father would do as punishment....
But he likened God's punishment and requirements for salvation to a human father. I was at a loss... how do you combat that?
other than that the memorial service was nice as was the conversation with the pastor.
Personally, I think a memorial service should be a time to honor and remember the person who died. I think the service should reflect them - not be used as a time sell any particular brand of religion. If the person who passed was very religious - then a very religious service would be understandable. But it should always be about the person who passed - not about converting the audience.
I felt the same way... however, all the christians in the room didn't seem to notice the problem...
It seemed very sales like rather than even preaching. I was a member of a sister church of this guy and Casey Treat so I was familiar with the practice but seeing it with new perspective and in that setting kinda irritated me. This is the second wake/memorial of this pastor's I have attended and he has done it both times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Yeah, that Guy was way out of line. It was a funeral, and you were there to celebrate the life of your FIL and mourn his death, not to convert others to his understanding. It just goes to show how proud and irreverent and insensitive some people are, using fear tactics to manipulate others at such an inappropriate time. But that is what you get when a person is so badly brainwashed that they believe it is their responsibility to save the souls of others. He thought he was earning Browne points with God.
Quote:
A question ... Was your FIL a "born a gain Christian"?
Yes he was a born again christian.. a great story of how he was pushed by the crowd to the altar in a quit smoking altar call. Tossed his cigs in the garbage and never looked back. In the "3 months to live" I asked hypothetically if he was an unbeliever what people would do but there seemed to be no question in anyone's mind that he was saved...
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall during your conversation . . . though his reaction is quite predictable and in line with what we see here every day from those indoctrinated in the "precepts and doctrines of men." While it is a more civilized and evolved reaction . . . its non-intellectual impetus is no different from the ones that perpetuated fear of demons and witches . . . resulting in burnings at the stake. The superstition and primitive ignorance that pervades the mainstream ET'ers beliefs is legion. I hope your connection with the social milieu that surrounds his religious circle will not produce any repercussions . . akin to social "burnings at the stake" in modern civilized terms.
Yes... on one hand I think the pastor should be diligent if that is what he truly believes but in such diligence he seems to overlook the inconsistencies in his behavior versus his ultimate goal. The people who (in his mind) needed his conversion most just walked out.... I think I am the only oddball he was able to corner.
Hi Kat. It's nice to "see" you again. I've never been to a memorial service with hellfire being preached but that's because I've never been to a memorial service of a non-Christian with a Christian preacher. I'm sorry for your loss.
My FIL was a Christian... this was just the pastor's usual time taken to win souls... with the threat of hell. He lives and breathes winning souls... which I admire in a weird way but is it always appropriate and if not that brings up questions about the validity of the belief in hell in my mind...
I'm really sorry about your FIL Kat, and that the funeral turned into a conversion free-for-all by the Minister. The whole story upset me so I can imagine how it made you feel. I'm just waiting for the day that this happens to me and what I would say....I have yet to have a conversation about universalism with anyone and I imagine the reaction would be the same as what you got. So far I've been perfectly happy knowing the real truth about salvation for all and I don't feel the need to shove it down people's throats like I felt the need to push ET and the impending doom for those who haven't accepted Christ as Savior. What a difference.
I felt bad for the friends who were not of the same faith that sat in the back and left quickly. He had some muslim friends and coworkers that were VERY uncomfortable I am sure.
I also felt sorry for those who just wanted to mourn the passing of a great guy, and the family (even tho they seem oblivious to the whole thing).
Well.. I am not the black sheep. The pastor did spread the word but they all know I am unusual anyway so I guess it didn't surprise them. They are all wonderful people and really care but it does get to me sometimes when we are talking and hell comes up.... IDK how that even happens LOL.
My FIL was a Christian... this was just the pastor's usual time taken to win souls... with the threat of hell. He lives and breathes winning souls... which I admire in a weird way but is it always appropriate and if not that brings up questions about the validity of the belief in hell in my mind...
As many of you know, my FIL was struggling with lung cancer and was given 3 months to live (see thread by that name). He has since passed away and at his memorial service the preacher seemed more interested in "storing up treasure" of his own by winning converts than celebrating the life of my FIL.
However, I am ultra sensitive to the peddling of Christianity as I call it so I wasn't really surprised and kept it to myself.
After the service/altar call, we went downstairs for fellowship and food. At that point the pastor made several remarks to known unbelievers about salvation which they countered easily by leaving. He is certainly persistent and passionate about what he believes will be the fate of unbelievers in a fiery hell if nothing else.
Finally it was my turn. He approached me and asked quite nonchalantly where my husband and I went to church. I replied that we used to attend but that we don't anymore. Partly because it was a strain on our family to get our small children ready in the morning and partly because I have changed my views of Christianity which is awkward in a church setting.
He was flabbergasted to say the least. Apparently he is used to being lied to or something! He then asked how my beliefs had changed and why... UH OH... I had two choices.... tell the truth about what I believe and suffer the black-sheep label or lie (sugar coat it at least) and move on as I hope never to attend another memorial with him...
I chose to tell him the truth. I said that I was a believer in universal salvation. That God intended for all men to come to the knowledge of him. That all men are saved.
The look on his face was incredible! We exchanged verses and he told me a story of the natives he saw in other countries and how they had no knowledge of the (christian) God... so how could they possibly be saved..... I said there is a difference in how I see people and how he sees people... I see them as already saved but without the realization of that salvation. He sees them as tainted and in need of salvation.
I asked him to tell me how God sees them. He said that they need to repent and give their lives to God through Christ. I agreed that they would indeed benefit from that but what part of that confession of belief affects how God sees them?
He said that God is like a parent, in that he cannot overlook sin and you must follow the procedure for salvation (my words not his actual words).
I said that if God is like a human parent then we are all in big trouble. God is nothing like a human parent IMO....
Well... it was a great conversation and I was called away for family pictures (which was weird because they didn't really need my pic....) and he followed me for a bit trying to resume the conversation. When he couldn't get my attention because I was busy with others.. he went to my husband...
Here is the funny part...
He talked to my husband about me... he suggested a book on how to be the leader in the family... he was basically telling my husband that I was leading us all to hell, IMO.
Any thoughts?
My grandfather was a minister and his primary job was minister of visitation. He would spend his time in hospitals and funerals and an occasional wedding. He would do nothing but preach the love of Jesus and hope, not use it as an excuse to scare people into salvation.
I am sure he would not be sick hearing about a service such as this.
This was your OP:
"We just found out my father in law has 3 months or less to live. He has lung cancer.
I am wondering how the average ETer would approach this situation given that he is not a christian...."
I don't know why anyone would think he was a Christian since you said he is not a Christian. You didn't say this was a hypothetical situation.
"given that" was meant as a hypothetical but by the time I realized it the thread had gone so far so I decided it would have been more confusing to address it. In the grand scheme of that thread it really didn't matter..IMO
My heart is with you in every area, which you have endured.
These hellfire preachers get red faced, angry, and hostile for the most part.
Especially, when confronted by them: "Here, sit down, relax, and I will get you a drop of water for that tongue."
James 3:6-11
And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defiles the whole body, and sets on fire the course of nature.
For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and has been tamed of mankind: But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.
Therewith many bless God, even the SPIRIT; and therewith also curse men, which are made after the similitude of the Father.
"Out of the same mouth of man proceeds blessing and cursing; my brethren, these things ought not to be so. Does a fountain send forth at the same place, sweet and bitter water?"
It can agitate the hell out of you, when love should be the first and foremost thing sought during these times of grief.
Not very edifying!
"The tongue lacks eloquence in the maintenance of error."
Hi Kat, I am sorry for your loss BUT I am proud that you stood up for what you believe and I agree with the many others here in that it was a totally inappropriate time to talk about the fate of unbelievers in his opinion.
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While it is a more civilized and evolved reaction . . . its non-intellectual impetus is no different from the ones that perpetuated fear of demons and witches . . . resulting in burnings at the stake. The superstition and primitive ignorance that pervades the mainstream ET'ers beliefs is legion. I hope your connection with the social milieu that surrounds his religious circle will not produce any repercussions . . akin to social "burnings at the stake" in modern civilized terms.
