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"given that" was meant as a hypothetical but by the time I realized it the thread had gone so far so I decided it would have been more confusing to address it. In the grand scheme of that thread it really didn't matter..IMO
Still sorry for the confusion.
Okay. Again, I'm sorry for your loss. Your family will be in my prayers.
I'm so sorry for your loss. And sorry for that preacher's behavior. It reminds me of that bumper sticker, "Jesus, please save me from your followers."
My friend is Jewish and has told me some very hilarious (and simultaneously, very upsetting) stories about what she has faced from Christians, as a Jew.
One that stands out in my mind: her landlord was Greek Orthodox. He knew she was Jewish; she was never sure how. He dropped hints on a regular basis about salvation, Christ, etc. etc. etc. She never bit; never attempted to defend herself or engage with him in any way.
Finally one day she was giving him her rent, exchanging pleasantries, trying to keep things light. He brought up Jewish people and made a few remarks about "what kind of people" they are. She didn't respond. Then he said to her, "You know what's wrong with Jewish folks, don't you?" She looked him right in the eye and said, "Of course. We don't accept Jesus Christ as our personal savior."
He was totally speechless! She was able to leave his office without any further attack. I thought it was positively brilliant!
Hi Kat, I am sorry for your loss BUT I am proud that you stood up for what you believe and I agree with the many others here in that it was a totally inappropriate time to talk about the fate of unbelievers in his opinion.
I agree with Sister above- and I'm so, so sorry, Katjonjj, that you had to deal with such insensitive, and downright ugly treatment at what was already a very hard time for you. But you obviously handled yourself well, and no doubt with poise, and I'm SO glad you didn't back down and spoke the truth. I must ask though; you said he suggested a book to your husband- what did your husband say in response? I hope he was as forthright as you...or, rather, a LOT less diplomatic (of course I'd like to think he told the guy to stick it where the sun don't shine...)
I don't want to distract from this thread being about you and your experience, but your experience hits close to home. And I feel for you. So, if it's OK I want to add a similar type of experience I had myself that involved a small-minded minister acting very insensitively and inappropriately, because until now, I really haven't had an appropriate place in which to vent about it...
Several years ago, a close friend of mine, Brandon, died very suddenly; it was a drug overdose, and he was only 27 years old. His mother arranged for his service to be at a church she went to- how often and to what degree she 'knew' this minister I am still not sure. I do know, though, that this was supposedly "her" church.
Anyway, Brandon was very loved by many- people of ALL kinds, a few religious- most not in the least. Of course that doesn't matter; everyon knows the point of a memorial is to honor the deceased person's life, but nobody cares/minds that such a service can sometimes be religious, especially if the deceased is religious, or if his family is. And it's to be expected that the subject of god, heaven and such things are to be a point of discussion, to some extent- as per the beliefs of said church and house minister. What was NOT expected- nor SHOULD be- was the judgement, and outright ugliness that we all had to sit through...
After hearing some WONDERFUL speeches from a couple of his close friends, the minister took over. And at first he seemed to be nice, and sensitive...then things took a very ugly turn. After talking about how Brandon was "OK" because as a little boy, he apparently was "saved", he went on to actually discuss Brandon's drug use! Yeah, really! And how because he used drugs he "sinned" and so forth, and all but alluded to him being a "bad person" but he's forgiven since was apparently "saved" (as a totally unknowing little boy. Right). Not to mention, he went on to say that the REST OF US were pretty much going straight to hell if we weren't saved. Of course I don't think anyone was hearing anything this guy was saying- we were all still reeling from the fact that this guy actually brought up DRUG USE while the guy is laying right there in the coffin! Talk about no dignity for the dead...
I can tell you that there was a tangible, foul energy and level of discomfort and ugliness that I'll never forget within those church walls. The lack of diplomacy and lack of tact (or, really, utter RUDENESS) that this minister exhibited was downright shameful, and disrespectful. And this guy doesn't sound far removed from this guy you dealt with, katjonjj...
Ministers of the church- ANY church, are supposed to be people of diplomacy, kindness, and respect- and ought not be doing ANY sort of ministering unless they have a gentleness about them. ESPECIALLY during a memorial service, that is so, so difficult for everyone there. Memorials are NOT a time to preach, they are a time to reflect upon, and honor the deceased person's life- not degrade, nor diminish him/her- and especially NOT a time to cause further pain to the deceased loved ones- for ANY reason.
And here's the bottom line, and something I want to address with regard to the experience detailed in the OP: I know I've said it before on many occasions/threads, but there is just such an extreme ugliness, and negativity that seems to literally seep and creep out of the type of people who believe in, and promote/preach the whole ET thing. I have yet to have a positive experience or exchange with a person who believes this way; it is as if the very demon and evil they fear, and preach against the most is that which they evoke and emit, and is who/what they literally, and physically manifest outwardly. It is a shame, but it is obvious that such people cannot bear to hold their own gaze in the mirror long enough to see themselves as others see them.
At any rate, sorry for the diversion- I just wanted to share because I felt like it was relevant. And I just hope that any of you who read about my experience or the OP NEVER have to be subjected to any experience so awful when you are mourning the loss of someone you love. Though I should mention, I've lost an unusually high number of close friends in the last 5 years, and that was the only time the service wasn't absolutely wonderful, and uplifting. Which is how a memorial *should* be. A memorial- however and wherever it is held- should be a time set out to celebrate the deceased's life- NOT mourn their death. And in between all the tears, it's a time for everyone to ENJOY and have an ABSOLUTE blast with mind to their recently passed friend/loved one, as if they were there. And I personally believe that they always are, in "spirit" so to speak, and of course forever within our hearts and minds.
This was your OP:
"We just found out my father in law has 3 months or less to live. He has lung cancer.
I am wondering how the average ETer would approach this situation given that he is not a christian...."
I don't know why anyone would think he was a Christian since you said he is not a Christian. You didn't say this was a hypothetical situation.
My thoughts exactly... But if she says it was a mistake, then so be it.
If he was a Christian believer then the church is the proper place for the service, and the pastor did the right thing to preach the Bible. He was only trying to do his job as a pastor. If the deceases was not a Christian, then maybe the church is not the place.... this is especially true when you know that you, and the relatives, are going to be offended by the Christian teachings. In this case the deceased was a Christian, but some of the guests in the service were not, and were uncomfortable hearing about his beliefs. It is always a sad moment to lose a loved one, but this man is now with the Lord, and that is the good news. When I go, I also want my service to be in a Christian church and I want the pastor to use the moment as an opportunity to preach the truth of the Gospel.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 09-27-2010 at 06:42 AM..
As many of you know, my FIL was struggling with lung cancer and was given 3 months to live (see thread by that name). He has since passed away and at his memorial service the preacher seemed more interested in "storing up treasure" of his own by winning converts than celebrating the life of my FIL.
However, I am ultra sensitive to the peddling of Christianity as I call it so I wasn't really surprised and kept it to myself.
After the service/altar call, we went downstairs for fellowship and food. At that point the pastor made several remarks to known unbelievers about salvation which they countered easily by leaving. He is certainly persistent and passionate about what he believes will be the fate of unbelievers in a fiery hell if nothing else.
Finally it was my turn. He approached me and asked quite nonchalantly where my husband and I went to church. I replied that we used to attend but that we don't anymore. Partly because it was a strain on our family to get our small children ready in the morning and partly because I have changed my views of Christianity which is awkward in a church setting.
He was flabbergasted to say the least. Apparently he is used to being lied to or something! He then asked how my beliefs had changed and why... UH OH... I had two choices.... tell the truth about what I believe and suffer the black-sheep label or lie (sugar coat it at least) and move on as I hope never to attend another memorial with him...
I chose to tell him the truth. I said that I was a believer in universal salvation. That God intended for all men to come to the knowledge of him. That all men are saved.
The look on his face was incredible! We exchanged verses and he told me a story of the natives he saw in other countries and how they had no knowledge of the (christian) God... so how could they possibly be saved..... I said there is a difference in how I see people and how he sees people... I see them as already saved but without the realization of that salvation. He sees them as tainted and in need of salvation.
I asked him to tell me how God sees them. He said that they need to repent and give their lives to God through Christ. I agreed that they would indeed benefit from that but what part of that confession of belief affects how God sees them?
He said that God is like a parent, in that he cannot overlook sin and you must follow the procedure for salvation (my words not his actual words).
I said that if God is like a human parent then we are all in big trouble. God is nothing like a human parent IMO....
Well... it was a great conversation and I was called away for family pictures (which was weird because they didn't really need my pic....) and he followed me for a bit trying to resume the conversation. When he couldn't get my attention because I was busy with others.. he went to my husband...
Here is the funny part...
He talked to my husband about me... he suggested a book on how to be the leader in the family... he was basically telling my husband that I was leading us all to hell, IMO.
Any thoughts?
I like your attitude. Having been brought up with 2 minister/grandparents I was exposed to scripture daily and I don't recall anything that says the only road to salvation is tucked away behind a church door.
As for scgraham. Isn't it funny how when one cannot find their own words they fall back on scripture or quotes? I don't mean to be insulting but it seems to be quite common.
My condolences on the loss of your FIL. Mine died last year and he wasn't very religious so we just took his ashes up to his favorite lake. After everyone said a little something my BIL opened the urn to scatter his ashes and a sudden breeze kicked up and we all went home covered in 'DAD'. I still say he had a hand in it!
And I am glad you were honest with that preacher man who sounds nearly intolerable to me. Men like him make me ill. Just reading your post about him made me feel that sick feeling that I get around the Pharisee spirit. Apparently people like him do not realize how terribly obnoxious they truly are.
I agree with Sister above- and I'm so, so sorry, Katjonjj, that you had to deal with such insensitive, and downright ugly treatment at what was already a very hard time for you. But you obviously handled yourself well, and no doubt with poise, and I'm SO glad you didn't back down and spoke the truth. I must ask though; you said he suggested a book to your husband- what did your husband say in response? I hope he was as forthright as you...or, rather, a LOT less diplomatic (of course I'd like to think he told the guy to stick it where the sun don't shine...)
Quote:
Thanks for the kind words... my husband is not of the same religious mind as I am... he just told the pastor he'd look into the book.. but we had a good chuckle about it. I'm well known for being "outside the box" so he's used to it. He is beginning to see the salesman mentality of some preachers now though.
I don't want to distract from this thread being about you and your experience, but your experience hits close to home. And I feel for you. So, if it's OK I want to add a similar type of experience I had myself that involved a small-minded minister acting very insensitively and inappropriately, because until now, I really haven't had an appropriate place in which to vent about it...
Several years ago, a close friend of mine, Brandon, died very suddenly; it was a drug overdose, and he was only 27 years old. His mother arranged for his service to be at a church she went to- how often and to what degree she 'knew' this minister I am still not sure. I do know, though, that this was supposedly "her" church.
Anyway, Brandon was very loved by many- people of ALL kinds, a few religious- most not in the least. Of course that doesn't matter; everyon knows the point of a memorial is to honor the deceased person's life, but nobody cares/minds that such a service can sometimes be religious, especially if the deceased is religious, or if his family is. And it's to be expected that the subject of god, heaven and such things are to be a point of discussion, to some extent- as per the beliefs of said church and house minister. What was NOT expected- nor SHOULD be- was the judgement, and outright ugliness that we all had to sit through...
After hearing some WONDERFUL speeches from a couple of his close friends, the minister took over. And at first he seemed to be nice, and sensitive...then things took a very ugly turn. After talking about how Brandon was "OK" because as a little boy, he apparently was "saved", he went on to actually discuss Brandon's drug use! Yeah, really! And how because he used drugs he "sinned" and so forth, and all but alluded to him being a "bad person" but he's forgiven since was apparently "saved" (as a totally unknowing little boy. Right). Not to mention, he went on to say that the REST OF US were pretty much going straight to hell if we weren't saved. Of course I don't think anyone was hearing anything this guy was saying- we were all still reeling from the fact that this guy actually brought up DRUG USE while the guy is laying right there in the coffin! Talk about no dignity for the dead...
I can tell you that there was a tangible, foul energy and level of discomfort and ugliness that I'll never forget within those church walls. The lack of diplomacy and lack of tact (or, really, utter RUDENESS) that this minister exhibited was downright shameful, and disrespectful. And this guy doesn't sound far removed from this guy you dealt with, katjonjj...
Ministers of the church- ANY church, are supposed to be people of diplomacy, kindness, and respect- and ought not be doing ANY sort of ministering unless they have a gentleness about them. ESPECIALLY during a memorial service, that is so, so difficult for everyone there. Memorials are NOT a time to preach, they are a time to reflect upon, and honor the deceased person's life- not degrade, nor diminish him/her- and especially NOT a time to cause further pain to the deceased loved ones- for ANY reason.
And here's the bottom line, and something I want to address with regard to the experience detailed in the OP: I know I've said it before on many occasions/threads, but there is just such an extreme ugliness, and negativity that seems to literally seep and creep out of the type of people who believe in, and promote/preach the whole ET thing. I have yet to have a positive experience or exchange with a person who believes this way; it is as if the very demon and evil they fear, and preach against the most is that which they evoke and emit, and is who/what they literally, and physically manifest outwardly. It is a shame, but it is obvious that such people cannot bear to hold their own gaze in the mirror long enough to see themselves as others see them.
At any rate, sorry for the diversion- I just wanted to share because I felt like it was relevant. And I just hope that any of you who read about my experience or the OP NEVER have to be subjected to any experience so awful when you are mourning the loss of someone you love. Though I should mention, I've lost an unusually high number of close friends in the last 5 years, and that was the only time the service wasn't absolutely wonderful, and uplifting. Which is how a memorial *should* be. A memorial- however and wherever it is held- should be a time set out to celebrate the deceased's life- NOT mourn their death. And in between all the tears, it's a time for everyone to ENJOY and have an ABSOLUTE blast with mind to their recently passed friend/loved one, as if they were there. And I personally believe that they always are, in "spirit" so to speak, and of course forever within our hearts and minds.
And that is so sad, why bother bring up the mistakes of the dead... what good is that gonna do? ... BTW, you are not diverting. I started this thread as an eyeopener. No one is going to come up to an altar call during a memorial. They are uncomfortable enough by reminding us of our mortality IMO. But yes a pastor should be there to help facilitate the memorial not expand his congregation.
My thoughts exactly... But if she says it was a mistake, then so be it.
If he was a Christian believer then the church is the proper place for the service, and the pastor did the right thing to preach the Bible. He was only trying to do his job as a pastor. If the deceases was not a Christian, then maybe the church is not the place.... this is especially true when you know that you, and the relatives, are going to be offended by the Christian teachings. In this case the deceased was a Christian, but some of the guests in the service were not, and were uncomfortable hearing about his beliefs. It is always a sad moment to lose a loved one, but this man is now with the Lord, and that is the good news. When I go, I also want my service to be in a Christian church and I want the pastor to use the moment as an opportunity to preach the truth of the Gospel.
The other thing I learned was that when you are dead... you don't get what you wanted. He wanted to be buried... but was cremated due to available funds.
I want to be cremated but I know my husband (if I am first) will bury me.... unless he's broke...
Anyway, I didn't go to the memorial to hear a hellfire speech. I went to honor my FIL. He was a good man, saved or not, who made mistakes just like the rest of us.
Technically I am saved.... I often wonder what that pastor would say at my memorial....
As many of you know, my FIL was struggling with lung cancer and was given 3 months to live (see thread by that name). He has since passed away and at his memorial service the preacher seemed more interested in "storing up treasure" of his own by winning converts than celebrating the life of my FIL.
However, I am ultra sensitive to the peddling of Christianity as I call it so I wasn't really surprised and kept it to myself.
After the service/altar call, we went downstairs for fellowship and food. At that point the pastor made several remarks to known unbelievers about salvation which they countered easily by leaving. He is certainly persistent and passionate about what he believes will be the fate of unbelievers in a fiery hell if nothing else.
Finally it was my turn. He approached me and asked quite nonchalantly where my husband and I went to church. I replied that we used to attend but that we don't anymore. Partly because it was a strain on our family to get our small children ready in the morning and partly because I have changed my views of Christianity which is awkward in a church setting.
He was flabbergasted to say the least. Apparently he is used to being lied to or something! He then asked how my beliefs had changed and why... UH OH... I had two choices.... tell the truth about what I believe and suffer the black-sheep label or lie (sugar coat it at least) and move on as I hope never to attend another memorial with him...
I chose to tell him the truth. I said that I was a believer in universal salvation. That God intended for all men to come to the knowledge of him. That all men are saved.
The look on his face was incredible! We exchanged verses and he told me a story of the natives he saw in other countries and how they had no knowledge of the (christian) God... so how could they possibly be saved..... I said there is a difference in how I see people and how he sees people... I see them as already saved but without the realization of that salvation. He sees them as tainted and in need of salvation.
I asked him to tell me how God sees them. He said that they need to repent and give their lives to God through Christ. I agreed that they would indeed benefit from that but what part of that confession of belief affects how God sees them?
He said that God is like a parent, in that he cannot overlook sin and you must follow the procedure for salvation (my words not his actual words).
I said that if God is like a human parent then we are all in big trouble. God is nothing like a human parent IMO....
Well... it was a great conversation and I was called away for family pictures (which was weird because they didn't really need my pic....) and he followed me for a bit trying to resume the conversation. When he couldn't get my attention because I was busy with others.. he went to my husband...
Here is the funny part...
He talked to my husband about me... he suggested a book on how to be the leader in the family... he was basically telling my husband that I was leading us all to hell, IMO.
Any thoughts?
What a coward to then go to your husband trying to create division like that.
Good job on standing your ground. I visited the old church I grew up in when i visited my folks, I actually had the opportunity to explain to my parents what I believed and that I believe it only because thats how powerful I believe Christ is. I did not use the typical labels simply because people many times already have in their mind the seed that certain labels are bad, no matter how you try to explain it.
When I visited the church, the sunday school lesson was about salvation, the sunday school teacher read out of the prescribed study guide they always have to use and when he got to one about about hell he told a story about his niece and is not sure about her destiny when she died.
I said, well, and I quoted John 3:16 and he said "I don't know if she believed befor she died" I said "but do you really believe Gods love never fails?" He said "Yes" I said then "if you really believe it, you have your answer"
He went silent and moved on, I thought perhaps he just shrugged it off and didn;t want to deal with what I just said.
However in his closing prayer, he said "Thank you Lord for people with undeniable faith in your love that can bring light on our darkness and doubt"
It always pays to speak our minds whether now or later. Let us continue to shine the light!!
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