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Old 09-28-2010, 08:53 PM
 
Location: Clewiston, Florida
69 posts, read 80,398 times
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Default Catholic Mass (Anglican Use)

Most of us have grown up with the current Novus Ordo Mass in the Catholic Church. Some parrishes still use the Latin Tridentine Mass and a limited few use what they call Anglican Use.

I have not attended an Anglican Use mass yet but I find it very interesting. It seems to have a lot more chants, and seems more traditional than the Novus Ordo.

Here are a few links I have found on YouTube:


YouTube - Requiem Mass, Anglican Use, Gospel


YouTube - Requiem Mass, Anglican Use, Intro Rite


YouTube - Mass, Anglican Use, Processional

I am wondering if this could go mainstream soon? From what I have read, it seems closer to an English translation of the Tridentine Mass but I could be wrong. Sorry I could not find a full Anglican Use mass clip. What are some opinions on this?

Thanks!

-Pat Healey
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Old 09-28-2010, 09:46 PM
 
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Very beautiful Mass. So this is a Catholic parish that uses the Anglican liturgy? It is more liturgical than many Roman Catholic parishes and reminds me of the old liturgy with no free-standing altar and I believe a tabernacle is on the altar. Most churches have moved the tabernacle to the side or in a adjoining chapel. I'm interested if this was formerly an Anglican parish that converted to Roman Catholic or a Roman Catholic parish that has been allowed to use the Anglican liturgy?
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Old 09-29-2010, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Clewiston, Florida
69 posts, read 80,398 times
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shrimpboat, Yes that is a Catholic parish using the Anglican Use Liturgy. It is Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church in San Antonio, Texas Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church ::

The current Novus Ordo Mass is nowhere as traditional as this. IMO they need to scrap the Novus Ordo and make Anglican Use the standard mass.

-Pat Healey
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Old 09-29-2010, 01:27 PM
 
Location: New York City
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This Mass is in the Anglo-Catholic style of Anglican use. In the 19th century there was a revival of high-church ceremonial in the Anglican Communion (see the Oxford Movement). There were many variations in the trend. Some parishes adapted the Anglican Book of Common Prayer to Roman Catholic (or Pre-Reformation English or "Sarum") ceremonial. Other used an English translation of the Tridentine Mass (which is arguably not Anglican at all).

When people speak of "Anglican use," they're really talking about the Book of Common Prayer.

After Vatican II things got very confused. Roman Catholic ceremonial became very informal and Anglo-Catholics (i.e, high-church Anglicans) were the only ones doing this kind of Mass.

Many of the things that people think of as "church" are Anglican innovations. For example, the revival of Gothic architecture for church buildings, processions, a choir singing an anthem, collective "prayers of the people" (taken from the Roman Catholic Good Friday liturgy by adopted for every service), a congregational confession of sin during the liturgy, etc.

There are conservative Anglo-Catholics but there are also conservative "Broad-Church" (i.e., formal but less "High-Church" smells-and-bells) Anglicans. Only a tiny minority of Anglicans are Anglo-Catholic.
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Old 09-29-2010, 02:10 PM
 
Location: New York City
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Another thing about Anglican Use (Anglo-Catholic or otherwise) it that it's extremely expensive. Episcopalians in the US spend far, far more on the liturgy that Roman Catholics do. The proper vestments for a Solemn High Mass are very costly. Some Episcopal churches have a 100 percent professional choir. I know parishes with fewer than 200 members that spend over $200,000 a year just on music. Many Roman Catholics would see that as decadent at best, and sinful at worst.

Anglicans/Episcopalians are not merely high-church but high-brow. Congregations tend to be wealthy and very well educated. They expect real (i.e., classical) music performed by professionals and are willing to pay for it. I go to a liberal Anglo-Catholic church in New York. We have a phenomenal (recording-quality) professional choir. The music director was Organ Scholar at Jesus College, Cambridge. We don't do folk Masses.

Clergy are also very well compensated. They make at least twice, sometimes more than four times, what a Roman Catholic priest would make. They also expect generous housing allowances or well-appointed accommodations.

A good-sized Episcopal parish has around 200 members. A Roman Catholic parish with 200 members would probably be closed or merged with another parish.

I don't think the Roman Catholic Church will allow the typical Anglican/Episcopal level of expenditure to continue.
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Old 09-29-2010, 07:32 PM
 
95 posts, read 75,578 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
Another thing about Anglican Use (Anglo-Catholic or otherwise) it that it's extremely expensive. Episcopalians in the US spend far, far more on the liturgy that Roman Catholics do. The proper vestments for a Solemn High Mass are very costly. Some Episcopal churches have a 100 percent professional choir. I know parishes with fewer than 200 members that spend over $200,000 a year just on music. Many Roman Catholics would see that as decadent at best, and sinful at worst.

Anglicans/Episcopalians are not merely high-church but high-brow. Congregations tend to be wealthy and very well educated. They expect real (i.e., classical) music performed by professionals and are willing to pay for it. I go to a liberal Anglo-Catholic church in New York. We have a phenomenal (recording-quality) professional choir. The music director was Organ Scholar at Jesus College, Cambridge. We don't do folk Masses.

Clergy are also very well compensated. They make at least twice, sometimes more than four times, what a Roman Catholic priest would make. They also expect generous housing allowances or well-appointed accommodations.

A good-sized Episcopal parish has around 200 members. A Roman Catholic parish with 200 members would probably be closed or merged with another parish.

I don't think the Roman Catholic Church will allow the typical Anglican/Episcopal level of expenditure to continue.
Very interesting; thanks for the information. I agree that the old liturgy has much to be commended. Among Lutherans there are still those who have altars that are not free-standing so that the clergy have their backs to the people and face the crucifix. You can't see the actual consecration at holy communion other than the elevation and the missal is moved from the left to right side of the altar at various times during the Mass. At my parish a lower altar closer to the chancel is where the Eucharist is celebrated since the high altar is not free-standing. The Mass now is said facing the people. Lutherans and Anglicans followed the Roman Catholic church when Vatican 2 was implemented and all new churches have free-standing altars so that the clergy face the people.

This Anglican-use liturgy is similar to what an Evangelical-Catholic [high Lutheran] church is like but as you point out, it is expensive to use vestments like deacon and subdeacon wear. Aside from the chasuble the only other vestment in most parishes is the stole the deacon wears to the side. I have been at services where the deacon and subdeacon are vested in a dalmatic and tunicle but that is rare at least in Lutheran churches. Everyone wears an alb with the priest vested in chasuble and stole and deacon in stole; that's it today.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:12 PM
 
Location: New York City
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The Roman Catholics that are getting excited about Anglican Use are really interested in Anglo-Catholic ceremonial not the Book of Common Prayer (or what they call the Book of Divine Worship). They want parishes that will raise the standard of liturgy from what is found in the average Roman Catholic parish today.

However, in the US, Anglo-Catholic style Anglican Use churches have been around since 1982. The movement is very small and has pretty much run its course. Nowadays the conservative Episcopalians who disapprove of female and gay clergy and are considering leaving the church are not Anglo-Catholics. Many are from the Low-Church wing of the Episcopal Church. They have no interest in plainsong, incense, Benediction or Corpus Christi processions. They're interested in maintaining the prayerbook (which is one of the glories of English prose) and the hymnal.

If they do convert, they won't be doing Masses like on the YouTube examples. Anglican Use is really the text of the liturgy, not the rubrics of the ceremonial.

What's interesting is now some Roman Catholics are interested in starting Anglo-Catholic style Anglican Use churches on their own (without former Episcopalians, or at least not whole congregations). I suspect many Roman Catholic bishops will not be pleased.
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Old 09-29-2010, 11:36 PM
 
Location: Clewiston, Florida
69 posts, read 80,398 times
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Quote:
However, in the US, Anglo-Catholic style Anglican Use churches have been around since 1982. The movement is very small and has pretty much run its course. Nowadays the conservative Episcopalians who disapprove of female and gay clergy and are considering leaving the church are not Anglo-Catholics. Many are from the Low-Church wing of the Episcopal Church. They have no interest in plainsong, incense, Benediction or Corpus Christi processions. They're interested in maintaining the prayerbook (which is one of the glories of English prose) and the hymnal.
I have noticed like you said most Anglicans wanting to leave are the low-church Evangelical types. Nothing wrong with that but that has never been my style. If I was into that, I would be Presbyterian or something along those lines. I think the only major Anglo-Catholic group wanting to become Catholic is the "Traditional Anglican Communion/Anglican Church in America". I attended a mass at the Cathedral Church of the Incarnation in Orlando which is a member. Their liturgy was a lot higher than the current Novus Ordo Mass in the Catholic Church.

I will post/reply more later. Zzzzzzz

-Pat Healey
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Old 10-03-2010, 03:33 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
10,032 posts, read 11,304,394 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tpk-nyc View Post
Another thing about Anglican Use (Anglo-Catholic or otherwise) it that it's extremely expensive. Episcopalians in the US spend far, far more on the liturgy that Roman Catholics do. The proper vestments for a Solemn High Mass are very costly. Some Episcopal churches have a 100 percent professional choir. I know parishes with fewer than 200 members that spend over $200,000 a year just on music. Many Roman Catholics would see that as decadent at best, and sinful at worst.

Anglicans/Episcopalians are not merely high-church but high-brow. Congregations tend to be wealthy and very well educated. They expect real (i.e., classical) music performed by professionals and are willing to pay for it. I go to a liberal Anglo-Catholic church in New York. We have a phenomenal (recording-quality) professional choir. The music director was Organ Scholar at Jesus College, Cambridge. We don't do folk Masses.

Clergy are also very well compensated. They make at least twice, sometimes more than four times, what a Roman Catholic priest would make. They also expect generous housing allowances or well-appointed accommodations.

A good-sized Episcopal parish has around 200 members. A Roman Catholic parish with 200 members would probably be closed or merged with another parish.

I don't think the Roman Catholic Church will allow the typical Anglican/Episcopal level of expenditure to continue.
Interesting, because I've thought the same thing about my own church. How much do they pay for this person who plays the pipe organ flawlessly? And the choir that sounds like angels from above? And the professional opera singer, bag pipe player, etc. they've had perform? I know our church is wealthy and big, so obviously the money is there and I find it inspirational. I think I read somewhere that large, rich Presbyterian churches are common in most large cities. Ours just happened to be the closest to our home.
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