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Old 11-25-2010, 03:03 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,482,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Well, if He said he wanted to, one would think He actually wanted to.

Maybe he was just talking to stay warm.

Or maybe you simply fail to realize that whenever Jesus spoke to the Israelites he used parabolic language ...

 
Old 11-26-2010, 09:23 AM
 
309 posts, read 187,233 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I didn't say it was about condemnation, I said it was an example of willful rejection. Israel rejected God more times that I can count, and God tried and tried to draw them back. He sent angels, prophets, faitful kings and even his own son, but they were not willing. They CHOSE rejection.

When Jesus said "how many times I wanted to gather you under my wings, but you wouldn't let me", it is clear that he tried to draw them, but He was rejected. The Bible says Christ draws all men, but it also says they not everyone will come.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
For crying out loud??? Are you angry? Why?

Jesus is referring to the past when he says "how many times have I wanted?". He tried over and over and over, and Israel kept rejecting Him. Eventually He hardened their hearts, so at present their hearts are hardened.
This is my point about this supposed "freewill" that man has, and you prove it very nicely when you say this...

"Israel rejected God more times that I can count..........they were not willing. They CHOSE rejection."

And THEN you say this...

".....Israel KEPT rejecting Him"

All this proves, is what I have been saying all along, which is they ALWAYS rejected Him, they KEPT and will KEEP chosing rejection, because that is the ONLY choice they have. God has shown this in scriptures many times....

Deu 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, .....that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

This is nothing more than an "I TOLD YOU SO" song written and kept as a 'witness' to what the Israelites are GOING to do (in the FUTURE) against God. And this is what was in it...

Deu 31:20 For when I shall have brought them (in the FUTURE) into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, "BEFORE" I have brought them into the land which I sware.

This knowledge is given to Moses, and he is to tell the Israelites this,....

Deu 31:27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? (this is in the FUTURE)

He is going to tell them WHAT they are GOING to do BEFORE they do, and he calls EVERYTHING to be a "witness" to it, even the eyes that read it today (you, me, everybody).

Deu 31:28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. (and WE are reading this record)

I dont think you understand the total implications that all of this is saying. In short, it is undeniably stating that 1) in the FUTURE AFTER you cross over into this land....and 2) WHATEVER CHOICE God gives WHEN YOU ARE THERE, you will ALWAYS choose to....
  • ..utterly corrupt yourselves,..
  • ..turn aside from the way which I have commanded you;..
  • ..do evil in the sight of the LORD,..
  • ..provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deu 31:29)
So it is obvious that they will ALWAYS choose BAD. That is the whole point of what I am saying. Yes!! You have "undoubtedly" found something that states that someone "willfully" has chose to reject God, but what you HAVE NOT found was one instance where someone chose NOT to reject Him, without God first GUIDING/DRAWING/TOUCHING/INFLUENCING his or her choice to do so. Yes....you have found they "willfully" rejected Him, but I am just taking it further and stating the they ALWAYS will (apart from God). Big difference.

You can find ANY choice (God gave them) in the bible you want, between the point WHEN God Spoke these words and NOW, and it will ALWAYS be shown that they chose AGAINST God. JUST LIKE GOD SAID....."I told you so". And apart from God helping us, WE would choose the same thing.

So you have found nothing new under the sun. As for the scripture that you quote of Mathew. The manuscripts do not show there, nor in Luke, a Greek word for the English word "let". People dont "let" Christ do anything. The word "let" implies 'allowance' on behalf of the holder, but it is clear the Israelites were not "allowed" to choose otherwise.

You have not found to date in the scriptures, someone who has ACCEPTED God apart from (that is "apart", mind you) Him leading them to do so.
 
Old 11-26-2010, 10:34 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,916 posts, read 13,107,982 times
Reputation: 4475
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
This is my point about this supposed "freewill" that man has, and you prove it very nicely when you say this...

"Israel rejected God more times that I can count..........they were not willing. They CHOSE rejection."

And THEN you say this...

".....Israel KEPT rejecting Him"

All this proves, is what I have been saying all along, which is they ALWAYS rejected Him, they KEPT and will KEEP chosing rejection, because that is the ONLY choice they have. God has shown this in scriptures many times....

Deu 31:19 Now therefore write ye this song for you, .....that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

This is nothing more than an "I TOLD YOU SO" song written and kept as a 'witness' to what the Israelites are GOING to do (in the FUTURE) against God. And this is what was in it...

Deu 31:20 For when I shall have brought them (in the FUTURE) into the land which I sware unto their fathers, that floweth with milk and honey; and they shall have eaten and filled themselves, and waxen fat; then will they turn unto other gods, and serve them, and provoke me, and break my covenant.
Deu 31:21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are befallen them, that this song shall testify against them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they go about, even now, "BEFORE" I have brought them into the land which I sware.

This knowledge is given to Moses, and he is to tell the Israelites this,....

Deu 31:27 For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? (this is in the FUTURE)

He is going to tell them WHAT they are GOING to do BEFORE they do, and he calls EVERYTHING to be a "witness" to it, even the eyes that read it today (you, me, everybody).

Deu 31:28 Gather unto me all the elders of your tribes, and your officers, that I may speak these words in their ears, and call heaven and earth to record against them. (and WE are reading this record)

I dont think you understand the total implications that all of this is saying. In short, it is undeniably stating that 1) in the FUTURE AFTER you cross over into this land....and 2) WHATEVER CHOICE God gives WHEN YOU ARE THERE, you will ALWAYS choose to....
  • ..utterly corrupt yourselves,..
  • ..turn aside from the way which I have commanded you;..
  • ..do evil in the sight of the LORD,..
  • ..provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. (Deu 31:29)
So it is obvious that they will ALWAYS choose BAD. That is the whole point of what I am saying. Yes!! You have "undoubtedly" found something that states that someone "willfully" has chose to reject God, but what you HAVE NOT found was one instance where someone chose NOT to reject Him, without God first GUIDING/DRAWING/TOUCHING/INFLUENCING his or her choice to do so. Yes....you have found they "willfully" rejected Him, but I am just taking it further and stating the they ALWAYS will (apart from God). Big difference.

You can find ANY choice (God gave them) in the bible you want, between the point WHEN God Spoke these words and NOW, and it will ALWAYS be shown that they chose AGAINST God. JUST LIKE GOD SAID....."I told you so". And apart from God helping us, WE would choose the same thing.

So you have found nothing new under the sun. As for the scripture that you quote of Mathew. The manuscripts do not show there, nor in Luke, a Greek word for the English word "let". People dont "let" Christ do anything. The word "let" implies 'allowance' on behalf of the holder, but it is clear the Israelites were not "allowed" to choose otherwise.

You have not found to date in the scriptures, someone who has ACCEPTED God apart from (that is "apart", mind you) Him leading them to do so.
No, God had His will and they chose against it. There is a good example in Jeromiah, where God spoke to Israel again, and again and told them to repent, but Israel chose to go against God, and paid the price.

" While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer."

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 11-26-2010 at 11:07 AM..
 
Old 11-26-2010, 10:48 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,997,695 times
Reputation: 649
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, God had His will and they chose against it. There is a good example in Jeromiah, where God spoke to Israel again, and again and told them to, but Israel chose to go against God, and paid the price.

" While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer."

Just curious, what price do you think Israel paid? All those pagan Israelites that died are all burning in hell?
 
Old 11-26-2010, 11:02 AM
 
Location: RI
19,470 posts, read 9,607,188 times
Reputation: 1359
O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.
Look, your house is left to you desolate.

I read this and see this is me before i knew the Lord,unwilling and desolate indeed.

And then i read this following scripture '"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'", and know this can only be made possible by him opening my eyes and causing me to be willing. Why do we always resist the Holy Spirit in our stiff necked pride and claim any part in the salvation of God ?, maybe we need our eyes open to how desolate we are, in order that we humble ourselves to acknowledge that our whole salvation is his doing.
 
Old 11-26-2010, 11:08 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,916 posts, read 13,107,982 times
Reputation: 4475
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Just curious, what price do you think Israel paid? All those pagan Israelites that died are all burning in hell?
Read Jeromiah and discover what happened to them.
 
Old 11-26-2010, 11:37 AM
 
309 posts, read 187,233 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, God had His will and they chose against it. There is a good example in Jeromiah, where God spoke to Israel again, and again and told them to, but Israel chose to go against God, and paid the price.

" While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer."
And I can say "again and again" to you that they BETTER choose agianst God, or else God is a liar. These "good examples" are all over the bible, but God ALREADY told you WHAT they would choose. You have yet to prove that they chose OTHERWISE.

Once again you say that "they chose against" God.

And I see your "they chose against" and raise you with...

"They ALWAYS chose against God."

Is there anyone who is understanding what I am saying here? Am I not explaining my point good enough here on this thread? Anyone? Anyone?

All throughout the bible, God is making this point when it comes to the "will of Man". And it is this...

1) You can NOT, WILL NOT, EVER choose Me....

2).."unless I cause you to choose Me"

And you Prove His point again. Everything you have brought up so far falls into catagory #1. His point is....

"Without me, you can NOT, WILL NOT, EVER DO GOOD"!!!

I will again try this by a different approach. Give me an example of ONE of them that "DID" chose God (without God's influence). You will NOT find one Finn.

Once again you quote..."While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer."

...And I raise you with "Duh.....I TOLD YOU SO" (Due 31:16-29)

Not to mention that God "gave" them these "ears that do not hear" His call...

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
 
Old 11-26-2010, 02:55 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,002 posts, read 1,623,495 times
Reputation: 219
Lightbulb Choosing what is choice

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post

Is there anyone who is understanding what I am saying here?
Am I not explaining my point good enough here on this thread?
Anyone? Anyone?

All throughout the Bible, God is making this point when it comes to the "will of Man". And it is this...

1) You can NOT, WILL NOT, EVER choose Me....

2).."unless I cause you to choose Me"

"Without me, you can NOT, WILL NOT, EVER DO GOOD"!!!
The apostle Paul sure agrees with you Joe.
Romans 3:10-18 includes absolutely everyone.

In his excellent writing on this subject James Coram also agrees with you.
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice

BTW, so do I agree with you Joe.
 
Old 11-26-2010, 03:43 PM
 
309 posts, read 187,233 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
The apostle Paul sure agrees with you Joe.
Romans 3:10-18 includes absolutely everyone.

In his excellent writing on this subject James Coram also agrees with you.
CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice

BTW, so do I agree with you Joe.
It is amazing on how few know these truths.

Thank you for your support roger
Joe
 
Old 11-26-2010, 05:58 PM
 
10,803 posts, read 5,243,153 times
Reputation: 754
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
And I can say "again and again" to you that they BETTER choose agianst God, or else God is a liar. These "good examples" are all over the bible, but God ALREADY told you WHAT they would choose. You have yet to prove that they chose OTHERWISE.

Once again you say that "they chose against" God.

And I see your "they chose against" and raise you with...

"They ALWAYS chose against God."

Is there anyone who is understanding what I am saying here? Am I not explaining my point good enough here on this thread? Anyone? Anyone?

All throughout the bible, God is making this point when it comes to the "will of Man". And it is this...

1) You can NOT, WILL NOT, EVER choose Me....

2).."unless I cause you to choose Me"

And you Prove His point again. Everything you have brought up so far falls into catagory #1. His point is....

"Without me, you can NOT, WILL NOT, EVER DO GOOD"!!!

I will again try this by a different approach. Give me an example of ONE of them that "DID" chose God (without God's influence). You will NOT find one Finn.

Once again you quote..."While you were doing all these things, declares the LORD, I spoke to you again and again, but you did not listen; I called you, but you did not answer."

...And I raise you with "Duh.....I TOLD YOU SO" (Due 31:16-29)

Not to mention that God "gave" them these "ears that do not hear" His call...

Deu 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Good post Joe!
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