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Old 11-28-2010, 09:05 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,015,991 times
Reputation: 865
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Really??

You really think the prophets, psalms, and the Law was written by people who were just blinded? Lord PLEASE, give me some of that blindness.

Well, what about James? Was he blinded to?
IN three places in the old testament we are told to return eye for an eye, tooth of a tooth, to return evil in equal measure.

Yet Jesus said that was wrong, that we should love our enemies and bless those who hurt us.

Paul repeats him when he exhorts us not to return evil for evil, even though the law of the old testament commands that we should.

Look at the prophet Jonah, he contradicted God when he was commanded to prophecy to Nineveh ... He hated when God loved and he wanted wrath when God wanted to give mercy ...

Look at moses, he contradicted and misrepresented God when God told him to speak to the rock so that it would give forth water, but instead Moses struck the rock in anger 3 times, for which he was refused entry into the promised land.

Though the old testament writers were certainly inspired by God, they themselves were never the less obviously not in agreement with God on multiple occasions.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that they misrepresented him sometimes in their writings?

Paul tells us this is a fact when he speaks of the veil of the old testament which blinded Israel to the fact that Jesus was the messiah and that the veil was done away in Christ, who himself contradicted and corrected the old testament as well when he commanded us not to return evil for evil as the law commands when it demands eye for an eye.



Quote:
Hmm, ok. There we those FEW that were purposed according to His divine plan, but to think ALL humanity has the same purpose? Show me!

WE have shown you hundreds if not thousands of times over the last year and a half since i have been here, you simply reject those scriptures and say God cant have what he wants, and that Christ is unable to accomplish the purpose for which he was sent, which was to accomplish Gods desire to save all people.

It would not do any good to repeat those myriad scriptures here, because you would simply reject them in return as you have always done.


Quote:
It was THEIR understanding of the Law,,not what was written down. By claiming the writers of the OT were blinded when they wrote,,,makes what you believe,,,a cult. Sorry. You must take the whole counsel of the Word,,,not the parts that are pleasing to your ears.
Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth was written down Hotinaz, do i really have to quote the scriptures that command it? Fine then ...


Exodus 21:22-25
“If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurelye but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


and again ...


Leviticus 24:17-20
‘If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.


and yet again ...


Deuteronomy 19:18-21
The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother, then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you. The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.


Yet Jesus said this was wrong ... The old testament and the law contradict the truth of Christ, and he contradicts the error of the old testament understanding of Gods commands in the law.

Why do so many refuse to acknowledge this? Because like Israel, their hearts are calloused and they reject the truth of Christ which he testified of when he was among us, and as Paul did after him.


Quote:
Sounds like what they believe is more in line than what you believe. I don't see many Christians discounting the OT claiming the people who wrote them were blind.
Because most Christians are blind to the truth of the gospel just as well ... Jesus plainly stated that the old testament law of eye for an eye misrepresented the character of God and his commands. That i s why Isaiah said i require mercy and not sacrifice, and that is what Jesus repeated.

But angry and vengeful hearts deny this mercy and love of God for all, and desire vengeance instead of mercy and compassion.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 11-28-2010 at 09:14 PM..

 
Old 11-28-2010, 09:14 PM
 
3,552 posts, read 2,749,070 times
Reputation: 569
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
IN three places in the old testament we are told to return eye for an eye, tooth of a tooth, to return evil in equal measure.

Yet Jesus said that was wrong, that we should love our enemies and bless those who hurt us.

Paul repeats him when he exhorts us not to return evil for evil, even though the law of the old testament commands that we should.

Look at the prophet Jonah, he contradicted God when he was commanded to prophecy to Nineveh ... He hated when God loved and he wanted wrath when God wanted to give mercy ...

Look at moses, he contradicted and misrepresented God when God told him to speak to the rock so that it would give forth water, but instead Moses struck the rock in anger 3 times, for which he was refused entry into the promised land.

Though the old testament writers were certainly inspired by God, they themselves were never the less obviously not in agreement with God on multiple occasions.

Why is it so hard for you to believe that they misrepresented him sometimes in their writings?

Paul tells us this is a fact when he speaks of the veil of the old testament which blinded Israel to the fact that Jesus was the messiah and that the veil was done away in Christ, who himself contradicted and corrected the old testament as well when he commanded us not to return evil for evil as the law commands when it demands eye for an eye.






WE have shown you hundreds if not thousands of times over the last year and a half since i have been here, you simply reject those scriptures and say God cant have what he wants, and that Christ is unable to accomplish the purpose for which he was sent, which was to accomplish Gods desire to save all people.

It would not do any good to repeat those myriad scriptures here, because you would simply reject them in return as you have always done.




Eye for an eye and tooth for a tooth was written down Hotinaz, do i really have to quote the scriptures that command it? Fine then ...


Exodus 21:22-25
“If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurelye but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman’s husband demands and the court allows. But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.


and again ...


Leviticus 24:17-20
‘If anyone takes the life of a human being, he must be put to death. Anyone who takes the life of someone’s animal must make restitution—life for life. If anyone injures his neighbor, whatever he has done must be done to him: fracture for fracture, eye for eye, tooth for tooth. As he has injured the other, so he is to be injured.


and yet again ...


Deuteronomy 19:18-21
The judges must make a thorough investigation, and if the witness proves to be a liar, giving false testimony against his brother, then do to him as he intended to do to his brother. You must purge the evil from among you. The rest of the people will hear of this and be afraid, and never again will such an evil thing be done among you. Show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.


Yet Jesus said this was wrong ... The old testament and the law contradict the truth of Christ, and he contradicts the error of the old testament understanding of Gods commands in the law.

Why do so many refuse to acknowledge this? Because like Israel, their hearts are calloused and they reject the truth of Christ which he testified of when he was among us, and as Paul did after him.




Because most Christians are blind to the truth of the gospel just as well ... Jesus plainly stated that the old testament law of eye for an eye misrepresented the character of God and his commands. That i s why Isaiah said i require mercy and not sacrifice, and that is what Jesus repeated.

But angry and vengeful hearts deny this mercy and love of God for all, and desire vengeance instead of mercy and compassion.

I understand what you are saying. But you must remember this. Mosaic Law was Moses Law, and Moses will judge those people on that day. Jesus even said this.

Yes, Jesus showed us a better way, and this I agree with.

But I am not going to claim the writers of the OT were just blind to the Truth of God, at ALL. Perhaps those who interpreted them were,,but not the writers themselves, as ALL scripture is INSPIRED BY GOD,,,period.
 
Old 11-28-2010, 09:17 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,251,117 times
Reputation: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I disagree.
Well, Jesus said those who hate Him also hate God:

Joh 15:23 `He who is hating me, doth hate also my Father;

You're really starting to freak me out HotInAz. You do believe that Jesus IS Jehovah God manifested in the flesh, right? One cannot hate Jesus and love God at the same time. You do believe this, right?

Quote:
I would, if it meant saving my family.
Of course, as would I. You and I are also obligated to love and protect our neighbors, such as the widow who lives next door. Right?

Quote:
He did not equate his hatred of the Way, for hating God.
Sure Paul did. He knew himself well:

Rom 1:28 And, according as they did not approve of having God in knowledge, God gave them up to a disapproved mind, to do the things not seemly;
Rom 1:29 having been filled with all unrighteousness, whoredom, wickedness, covetousness, malice; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil dispositions; whisperers,
Rom 1:30 evil-speakers, God-haters, insulting, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 unintelligent, faithless, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful;
Rom 1:32 who the righteous judgment of God having known--that those practising such things are worthy of death--not only do them, but also have delight with those practising them.

Paul (then Saul) knew of these "works" within himself, all to well. As do all of us before being born of the Spirit.

Quote:
Sorry. This is not correct to assume Paul hated God simply because he didn't know Jesus. Most Jews did not know Christ, but some did.
Saul neither knew Jesus nor was he a supporter of those who did:

Act 9:5 And he said, `Who art thou, Lord?' and the Lord said, `I am Jesus whom thou dost persecute; hard for thee at the pricks to kick;'

Gal 1:13 for ye did hear of my behaviour once in Judaism, that exceedingly I was persecuting the assembly of God, and wasting it,

And here is what Jesus said about this type of persecution:

Joh 7:7 the world is not able to hate you, but me it doth hate, because I testify concerning it that its works are evil.

Joh 15:23 `He who is hating me, doth hate also my Father;

Joh 16:2 out of the synagogues they will put you; but an hour doth come, that every one who hath killed you, may think to offer service unto God;
Joh 16:3 and these things they will do to you, because they did not know the Father, nor me.

Psa 25:19 See my enemies, for they have been many, And with violent hatred they have hated me.

Quote:
God hates wickedness. God hates those who 'practice' wickedness. The verses stating this cannot be refuted. Sorry if this goes against your theology, but it doesn't change the scriptures. God loves, yes. But God also sent His Son, out of love.
You indicated that God does not love all people:
----------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Let me get this straight, are you saying that God does not love all people?

Here is your response to the question:

That is EXACTLY what I am saying. Is it any clearer to you? Here are some verses for you to study:
-----------------------------------------------------------
I believe God does love all people, including those like Saul, as well as you and I, who worked iniquity (evil works) before coming to faith. Paul tells us that we were God's enemy when He reconciled us to Himself:

Col 1:21 And you--once being alienated, and enemies in the mind, in the evil works, yet now did he reconcile,

Quote:
Now, for those who go against His ONLY begotten Son,,,,they will feel how much He hates them, until they are dead. They are twice dead,,doubly uprooted, etc.
You mean just like God did with Saul, as well as you and I?
 
Old 11-29-2010, 04:41 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
33,384 posts, read 10,879,030 times
Reputation: 4173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Arrogant remark?
It is arrogant to tell people to read so they can learn something. It is same as saying they don't know anything, but you do.

Tsk, tsk. Not nice.
 
Old 11-29-2010, 05:51 AM
 
5,431 posts, read 2,552,621 times
Reputation: 428
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
This is written to a covenant people, the Hebrews.

I am sure when He finally destroys souls, it will be out of divine Love, and perfect Judgement.
No doubt it will be out of divine love. I am confident He will destroy all our souls. After all, if He didn't we couldn't have His Life in us. Praise God.
 
Old 11-29-2010, 06:44 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,436,107 times
Reputation: 216
Lightbulb Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
They will go away to (ETERNAL PUNISHMENT), but the righteous to eternal life. Matt. 25:46
See
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

An argument that is frequently used is that God would never have allowed the most popular versions of His written word to have been mistranslated.

But evidence shows that is exactly what God did.

Why did God do that?

The best answer that I know of is the point of view that shared by Ray Prinzing, and A.P. Adams.

God completely controls the interplay between good and evil and will eventually work it all out, both for His glory, and for the benefit of everyone who needs salvation.

From the point of view of the consummation of the ages of time, everyone will look back and understand that it was better for everyone that everything happened the way that it did.

The most popular versions of the Bible hide the truth of God's great plan to consummate the ages of time with the salvation of everyone who needs saving.

Here is a snippet from an introduction to Joseph Kirk’s
GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME

“No two words in the history of man have been so torturing as aion and aionion. No two words in the history of man, mishandled by man, have contributed more to the physical, emotional and spiritual harm of so many, than these. You may think I must be exaggerating. But I am not. It is the mistranslation of these two words that has foisted the false and destructive doctrine of eternal torment upon the church and the world.

Mistranslation of the Greek words "aion" and “aionion” is a master stroke of diabolical genius. No other words erroneously translated, could more effectively pervert man’s image of God and cause such widespread confusion. The following work by Joseph E. Kirk is offered in the hope that the serious seeker after scriptural truth will be aided in their quest.”

BIBLICAL CHART OF GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME
THE EONS OF THE BIBLE WITH CONCORDANCE
The eons of the Bible With Concordance, God’s purpose of the eons.

ETers, and ANers, love to dramatically declare the idea that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved as “blasphemy from the pit of hell.”
No doubt this kind of declaration discourages many from even considering UR to be true.

But that temporary rejection is also part of God’s plan because God needs a foil of contrast against which He can manifest and glorify and magnify the wonderfulness of His true character.

URs rejoice in GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME and perceive it as God’s marvelous truth.
 
Old 11-29-2010, 07:08 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 5,855,016 times
Reputation: 58111
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
ETers, and ANers, love to dramatically declare the idea that sooner or later God is going to save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved as “blasphemy from the pit of hell.”
No doubt this kind of declaration discourages many from even considering UR to be true.

But that temporary rejection is also part of God’s plan because God needs a foil of contrast against which He can manifest and glorify and magnify the wonderfulness of His true character.

URs rejoice in GOD’S PLAN FOR THE AGES OF TIME and perceive it as God’s marvelous truth.
Amen Rodger!! That is a wonderful way to put it!! God's true revealing will be awesome!!
 
Old 11-29-2010, 07:18 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 6,102,796 times
Reputation: 477
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
There is nothing being removed, being censored or anything else. A good heart filled with the Spirit of Christ will not bring forth evil doctrines and evil thoughts. Evil hearts, regardless of what they see or read, will always bring forth evil doctrines, full of malice, bitterness and envy. ETer's really dislike being told that God justifies the ungodly by Christ alone. And He did so (past tense) apart from anything that the sinner did or does. That's why I say it so often on this board...LOL

When ETer's read of God's judgments they "see" and "hear" only condemnation, hell fire and tormenting of God's creation for all eternity. When UR's read of God's judgment's they "see" and "hear" God's grace. They "see" the Good potter at work, who brings miracles of kindness, goodness and mercy that will, in the end, shape, mold and form that lump of clay that He created into vessels of honor for His glory.

Do you see this too?
No, no, and no. ETer's don't dislike being told that God justifies the ungodly by Christ alone. What we dislike is when people such as yourself forget to mention that such justification only comes to the (UNGODLY) when they (PERSONALLY ACCEPT) Christ as their LORD and saviour. You would have everyone believe God gives a blank check to all. You would have all believe that no one has to sign off on that check. And when Jesus tells us that the non believers will enter the eternal flames of Hell prepared for the Devil and his angels. You would have us believe that Jesus was lying to us. Because according to you. Everyone is saved. Which according to Jesus is a lie. Jesus tells us, that wide is the gate that leads to destruction and (MANY) their be that enter it. And then He tells us that narrow is the way that leads to eternal life (AND FEW THEIR BE) that find it. In order to believe what you do. Such a belif requires us to believe that the Jesus Christ of the New Testament is a bold faced liar. YOUR SAYING, we cannot believe Christs own words. And if you reject Christ words of the Scriptures, then the only belief left are created doctrines of devils. And such a doctrine, is what you are pushing here. Your like the snake in the garden. Telling Eve surly you can eat from this tree. You will not experience death because of your actions. You don't have to believe what the God of the Bible told you.

When the Jesus Christ of the New Testament tells us that non believers will enter the eternal flames prepared for the Devil and his angels. Do you believe that the Jesus of the New Testament was telling us the truth? Or do you believe He was lying to us? It's a simple question, which only requires a simple answer.
 
Old 11-29-2010, 07:19 AM
 
6,171 posts, read 3,604,602 times
Reputation: 644
Exactly Rodger! That is why:

Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

But those who have been blinded cannot comprehend this verse, because if they truly grasped what it said, their theology would fall apart in a moment.
 
Old 11-29-2010, 09:02 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,436,107 times
Reputation: 216
Lightbulb Salvation out of the lake of fire which is the 2nd death

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
When the Jesus Christ of the New Testament tells us that non believers will enter the eternal flames prepared for the Devil and his angels. Do you believe that the Jesus of the New Testament was telling us the truth? Or do you believe He was lying to us? It's a simple question, which only requires a simple answer.
No doubt Alabama will answer you when she comes back online.

In the mean time Campbell, check out my last post #646 regarding God's plan for the ages of time.

Yes, I "believe that the Jesus of the New Testament was telling us the truth."

But everyone who enters the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
L. Ray Smith - The Lake of Fire - Part 1
L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - part 2
L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire - Part 3
L. Ray Smith - Lake of Fire part 4
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