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Old 11-29-2010, 03:24 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,384,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Romans 4:5 does not upset me at all. It speaks the truth. Yet it adresses only those, (WHO BELIEVE). And that's the difference.
Well, let's see if that is true:

Rom 4:5 But to the one not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Do you see the phrase highlighted? The term "justifying", within the phrase, is being used in the present tense. Jesus IS justifying the ungodly right now, as I type this. This is what His resurrection proclaims (Rom 4:25).

The ungodly are not believers, but rather unbelievers that are working iniquity against Christ. They are the enemies of Christ. Just like you and I were when we we too were His enemies. And Christ IS justifying them now in their present state of ungodliness. Here is the Greek word ἀσεβής (ungodly) and what it means:

ἀσεβής
It means godless, without fear and reverence of God. It does not mean irreligious, but one who actively practices the opposite of what the fear of God demands.

The ungodly ones are not the saints spoken of to whom Paul addressed his letter:

Rom 1:7 to all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called saints; Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ!

You have clearly told us that you do not believe in Him who justifies the ungodly. You've told us that the ungodly ones (the unbelievers) are not justified by Jesus, but rather will be cast into hell for eternity.

To illustrate this further, I'll use the example Paul gives us concerning the promise made to Abraham:

Gen 15:5 And He brought him outside and said, Look now at the heavens and count the stars, if you are able to count them. And He said to him, So shall your seed be.
Gen 15:6 And he believed in Jehovah. And He counted it to him for righteousness.

The truth of God's promise to Abraham was not conditional on Abraham believing it. That truth of God "So shall your seed be" stands alone on God's word, whether Abraham believed it or not.

In like manner, justification of the ungodly (including you and I) is also true. It stands on the merits of Christ alone who accomplished it for us. Those who believe, like Abraham, are imputed with His righteousness. Those who do not believe (unlike Abraham) are not imputed with His righteousness. Not yet anyway, but they too will also be called, regenerated and brought to faith by the Spirit of Christ. They too, in time, will also be imputed with the righteousness of Christ. And we know this will happen because Paul told us that those whom Christ justified (all the ungodly, all mankind for whom He died) are those whom He will also glorify:

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 
Old 11-29-2010, 03:25 PM
 
Location: Washington State
3,371 posts, read 2,027,366 times
Reputation: 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You clearly have not read L. Ray Smith's writings if this is what you think they are about.

Universal salvation is supported 100% in the bible. No one is tormented forever and ever...


And L. Ray Smith is certainly not the one who started any of this. He just started studying the restitution of all things (a doctrine that goes back 2000 years), and the more he studied the more he started linking things together. I think he does an awesome job of showing what the lake of fire means, the sea of glass, calming the "waters," etc. I don't agree with him on all things, but none of us should agree with somebody 100% of the time, as none of us are perfect.
 
Old 11-29-2010, 04:16 PM
 
309 posts, read 185,823 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You can keep repeating it, but it won't make it true.
Yet, the bible keeps SHOWING you that it is though. Is the bible true? You have found not ONE example to show otherwise sir.

Your view is equivalent to “Man has an UN-influenced choice (hence ‘freewill’) to choose God or Not” (these choices being represented as “Good or Bad”). After all we have been talking about….do you want to see the score Finn.
  • Good choices made = “0.000” (that is zero, zilch, nada, none, etc.[only the ‘influenced’ made this choice])
  • Bad choices made = “Gazillion, Gazillion.000” (in other words they chose this EVERYTIME, ALWAYS)
If what I am “claiming” is NOT true, then, by all means, SHOW ME. I give you verse after verse, but yet you canNOT give me one verse to prove your (freewill) claim that “some will choose good and some bad”. You keep trying though…

Quote:
When God says "Turn to me, and be saved", he means that you need to turn to Him.


Yep….and so, given your view, how many “UN-influenced” people will TURN? (NONE!! Maybe)

Quote:
When he says "seek the narrow gate, because only a few find it", he actually means that you should seek it.


Yep….and so, given your view, how many “UN-influenced” people will SEEK? (NONE!! Maybe)

Quote:
When He says "knock", you should knock.


And how many “UN-influenced” people will KNOCK? (NONE!! Maybe)

Quote:
When he says "believe", you should believe.
And how many “UN-influenced” people will BELIEVE? (NONE!! Maybe)

I would settle for just ONE example and you canNOT show it to me.

Quote:
You may not believe it, but you do have a part in the picture.


I believe it. I AM the CANVAS that HE IS PAINTING the picture on. I AM the CLAY that is HE is FORMING. I AM the AXE that He SWINGS.

Tell me sir. Are you CHOOSING the COLORS? Are you PICKING the vessel that is to become? Do you SHARPEN yourself?

I know that I AM A SINNER Finn, and WITHOUT Him I AM NOTHING. He has been proving this “over and over” again in the bible. That Man can “do NO GOOD” without God.

Quote:
When Jesus said he tried to gather Israel, he was actually telling them to turn to Him, but they didn't.


Yep….and it has been shown to you (with scripture) that HE KNEW they CANNOT come. If you want to put this in the ‘analogy’ of WANT, then what He WANTS is for YOU to see/hear/understand the same thing that HE ALREADY KNOWS. Which is what again????

“You CANNOT come”.

Once Man KNOWS this, then he GROW Spiritually. God will give man BOTH this KNOWLEDGE and GROWTH.

Quote:
I never said everything is up to us.


Give me your definition for the word “EVERYTHING” here Finn. To me EVERYTHING is equated to “being WITH the LORD....being a child of God……being loved….being Given Aionion Life…..etc.”.

So in my understanding of your veiw, for one to have this EVERYTHING, then it is, very well indeed, “UP TO US”, as you say.

So yes sir. EVERYTHING is up to you. Because, if one chose the OTHER option, then they are left with (depending on beliefs) NOTHING! or TORTURE!

You may not say it Finn, but that is what you believe. Everything we have been talking about so far points to that.

Quote:
I already told you that God draws us, (He says He draws everyone at some point) and plants the seed, and He does the saving, but our part is to accept the offer.


Show me this “drawing”, you speak of, of the Infant, or the one who has NOT known, or Pharaoh, etc. Your very next sentence blows this notion out of the water.

Quote:
Before the calling there is NOTHING WE CAN DO. (emph. Joe’s)
Yes…tis true, but how much do you believe your OWN words here Finn. So tell me, if there are some to whom there is “NOTHING” they can do, then why blame them?

Quote:
God does not send out invitations to His wedding for nothing. He wants us to accept the invitation.


Again, to put it in your ‘analogy’ of what He WANTS. Then, He WANTS us to know that we CANNOT ACCEPT it, WITHOUT HIM (His touching, influencing, guiding, etc.)

Quote:
He is calling millions of people, and many reject it. Some are called for years, and reject, but eventually they accept Him.
Yep….”many are CALLED, but few are CHOSEN”. If God did not do the “choosing”, then NOT ONE PERSON WHO HAS EVER LIVED WOULD “EVER” ACCEPT HIM. It is ALL of God. This is ALL OVER THE BIBLE!!

Quote:
Unfortunately many die before accepting Him, and those people are lost forever.
It begs to question then, what happens to those to whom there is “nothing they can do”. (Psssst…..You really are seeing something here, but I think that maybe the mirror is still a little dirty. I applaud you for seeing it though.)

Quote:
Once God calls you and plants the seed, then your heart is open and the choise is yours. Harden your heart, and the seed will not be able to penetrate. Keep living in sin, and the seed will not see sunlight, but if you choose Him, the seed will find its root.


Now we are getting somewhere. Good for you for bringing this up!!!! Let us look at this parable and compare it to your “understanding” (comprehension). What you say is very beautiful. All except for one thing, let us walk through it…..

First notice, that the “parable”, itself, is spoken to the “called (multitude) AND His Chosen (disciple)”. And at the end of it he says.
  • Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
But the following “expounding” explanation(interpretation) of the parable is ONLY spoken to the CHOSEN. This is what I meant about speaking differently towards those ‘touched’ and those not. And He tell them to “hear” it.
  • Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
This is actually pretty neat, because it lines up to what you just said. He is about show them something here.
  • Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, AND understandeth it not,…...
We see something very revealing here. One can have the ability of hearing what is ‘spoken’ but, at the SAME time, NOT have the ability to UNDERSTAND (Gk: ‘comprehend’). Hence, given “ears WITHOUT, or Minus, understanding/hearing”. The verse goes on to show…
  • …..then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side
Hence, we see here the equation (ears – not hearing = ears). They have ‘NO UNDERSTANDING’. Next we have…
  • Mat 13:20-21 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Again, (ears – not hearing = ears). They have ‘NO UNDERSTANDING’. Next we have…
  • Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Again, (ears – not hearing = ears). They have ‘NO UNDERSTANDING’. Next we have…

  • Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, AND understandeth it;…….
NOW!!!….NOW we have the equation (Ears + Hearing = Good Things).

So yes, we learn that “he that hath ears that hear” have GOOD GROUND to plant in. If one “hath” something, then it is undoubtedly a POSSESSION of theirs, right? Where the heck did he get it from though?? WHO GAVE them this “possession”? Indeed, WHO gave them this “UNDERSTANDING”??? This Comprehension??
  • Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because IT IS GIVEN unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
The word “know” here is the same Greek word for this “understanding” we speak of (this word basically means “comprehension”). This verse plainly says that….

“IT IS GIVEN TO YOU TO KNOW”.

The Comprehension is GIVEN to you, you did not CHOOSE it. It is IMPOSSIBLE to choose it because it is NOT GIVEN to others. So how, pray tell, can they choose it, if it is not even one of the "choices" to begin with. You either KNOW it or you DON’T. If you DO know it, then it was GIVEN to you know it.

This the difference between the “Called” and the “Chosen”. The Chosen have it, but the Called do not. Heck….He didn’t even tell the “called” (multitudes) the explanation, only the Chosen (his “chosen” disciples, John 15:16). It is all of God Finn. What you say in you last comment rings true except for the words “but if you choose”.

I wish I could talk privately with you on this, for there is much to say. There are things that are hard to get across within the atmosphere of this “Arena”.

Take care
Joe
 
Old 11-29-2010, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,853 posts, read 12,984,693 times
Reputation: 4465
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
.
I am now convinced that you are arguing against arguments no one has made, and you do it only to entertain yourself, because you are obviously talking to yourself. First you say something, then you agree to it, and then declare "now we're getting somewhere".

Quote:
Show me this “drawing”, you speak of


How many times does it have to be explained to you? God desires people to be saved so he plants the seed of truth in their hearts. This is a calling. God touches our hearts, and wants us to respond. If you do not respond, the seed will not take root. Until this seed has been planted, a person cannot receive Christ, but since God will call everyone, there will not be such people who never received the "seed". But then again, I already told you this in my earlier post.
 
Old 11-29-2010, 05:31 PM
 
309 posts, read 185,823 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
I am now convinced that you are arguing against arguments no one has made, and you do it only to entertain yourself, because you are obviously talking to yourself. First you say something, then you agree to it, and then declare "now we're getting somewhere".



How many times does it have to be explained to you? God desires people to be saved so he plants the seed of truth in their hearts. This is a calling. God touches our hearts, and wants us to respond. If you do not respond, the seed will not take root. Until this seed has been planted, a person cannot receive Christ, but since God will call everyone, there will not be such people who never received the "seed". But then again, I already told you this in my earlier post.

Lol.....ok Finn. Contrary to what you have said, you have not "explained or told" (or SHOWN) me a thing. I have repeatedly asked for 'THAT ONE EXAMPLE' and you have YET to show it to me.

Where is your proof Finn? Give me that example! Give me the scripture!
You have repeatedly dodged this.

Everything that you have said, men's words, has been heard MANY times coming across a PULPIT. But neither they NOR YOU have given not ONE shred of PROOF to your claim. Again, if it is true, then SHOW ME.

For now, my challenge of...

Quote:
But that is NOT that answer to my challenge, and you know it. Like always, you cant answer the whole issue. You have supplied an answer to this….

“Give me an example of ONE of them that "DID" chose God”

But once again, you dodge the real challenge which was this….

“Give me an example of ONE of them that "DID" chose God….(WITHOUT GOD’s INFLUENCE).”

And we all know you never will….
You still dodge. SHOW ME Finn!! There MUST be a reason why you have NOT presented your proof. Maybe because it doesnt exist??

Take care
Joe
 
Old 11-29-2010, 05:44 PM
 
309 posts, read 185,823 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
God tells us their torment will be for ever and ever. (I BELIEVE THAT.) The God of the Bible is not speaking of some kind of temporary condition here. For ever and ever, means just that. It really all comes down to this. Do you believe the very words of Christ found in the Scripture? Or do you ignore His words, and believe that, "for ever and ever", is some how only a temporary condition. Because if you can change, "for ever and ever" into some kind of temporary condition. Then you can change anything in Scripture. And it's words become meaningless. Scripture now becomes whatever you want it to mean. And that will only lead you down the road to error.
And just what does the phrase "forever and ever" mean then?

If it means "eternity", then I wonder just what you think the SINGLE word "forever" means. Does it mean Half way??

Think about it. Do they both mean the same thing?
 
Old 11-29-2010, 05:54 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,000 posts, read 1,610,292 times
Reputation: 219
Lightbulb it was not even possible for you to not start trusting in Jesus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
How many times does it have to be explained to you? God desires people to be saved so he plants the seed of truth in their hearts. This is a calling. God touches our hearts, and wants us to respond. If you do not respond, the seed will not take root. Until this seed has been planted, a person cannot receive Christ, but since God will call everyone, there will not be such people who never received the "seed". But then again, I already told you this in my earlier post.
Finn, sooner or later you are going to learn that it was not even possible for you to not start trusting in Jesus as your Savior when you did start trusting in Him.

Pride says, "I took the “chance” that God gave me and I got myself saved by properly cooperating with Him."

Humility says, "God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.”

Our conversion may not be anywhere near as dramatic as Paul's but it is no less a 100% accomplishment of God's grace alone plus nothing.

God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach lessons.
But God's grace can NEVER be defeated.

God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save everyone from everything from which they need to be saved will eventually SUPERSEDE the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.

Do you really think that Saul could have said, "F___ you Jesus Christ; I'm going to keep persecuting your followers just like I did before" ??

NOT A "CHANCE" !!!

CHOOSING WHAT IS CHOICE
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 9 - Choosing What Is Choice

Last edited by rodgertutt; 11-29-2010 at 05:56 PM.. Reason: spelling
 
Old 11-29-2010, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,853 posts, read 12,984,693 times
Reputation: 4465
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
Lol.....ok Finn. Contrary to what you have said, you have not "explained or told" (or SHOWN) me a thing.
My posts are not explanations? Well, if you say so.....
 
Old 11-29-2010, 06:32 PM
 
309 posts, read 185,823 times
Reputation: 57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
My posts are not explanations? Well, if you say so.....
round-about.....round-about....dodge...dodge

Ok.....I guess the FJV bible translation has spoken again.....so, "if you say so".....It MUST be true.
 
Old 11-29-2010, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,853 posts, read 12,984,693 times
Reputation: 4465
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeallcomm View Post
round-about.....round-about....dodge...dodge

Ok.....I guess the FJV bible translation has spoken again.....so, "if you say so".....It MUST be true.
FJV bible translation????

No one is obligated to put up with anyone's demands and childishness here. If you don't like my answers, then that's too bad. I have made my points and you reject them, apparently even without reading them, and now you childishly demand me to prove a point I never even made. I specifically explained a number of times, that God plants the seed, calls us and saves, yet you demand me to give you an example where someone was saved without God's influence.

So, yes "IF YOU SAY SO".

No more games, and no further comment.


Mark 1:15 “The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!”

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 11-29-2010 at 07:51 PM..
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