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Old 12-01-2010, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,387,835 times
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The idea that thousands of Muslims die every day and supposedly start an eternity of inescapable everlasting suffering because they were threatened at an early age with the terrorizing prospect that they had better reject Christ as their Saviour or suffer the eternal consequences in hell, demonstrates the absurdity of the eternal torment theology.

"Non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished in hell eternally"
quoted from
Islamic Belief about the Afterlife
The Afterlife in Islam - ReligionFacts


The STRONGEST influence in the life of a Muslim is to trust for their salvation in Muhammad, the Koran, Allah, and Islam's theologians who tell them that
"Non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished in hell eternally"

And the STRONGEST influence ALWAYS prevails.

But since Jesus Christ, in the long run, is really the STRONGEST influence, sooner or later, all Muslims will be saved along with everyone else who needs saving too.

ETERNAL TORMENT THEOLOGY IS BOTH ABSURD AND UNBIBLICAL
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World

 
Old 12-01-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,387,835 times
Reputation: 259
BTW, their statement of belief also states
"Being a Muslim does not keep one out of Hell.
Hell can be seen as a place of progress where Muslim souls are instructed until they are fit to go to heaven."
But "Non-Muslims (kafir), however, will be punished in hell eternally"

Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-01-2010 at 02:22 PM.. Reason: punctuation
 
Old 12-01-2010, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,949 posts, read 47,272,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Forget it, you don't want to acknowledge your own belief system that damns most of the world to endless torment. But hey at least it brings you great joy and peace.
I acknowledge what they Bible teaches, and what I believe but I will not join you in judging who believes and who does not. That is a job for God, not me.

PS It is funny how URs usually accuse Christians that all we ever talk about is ET, and now you accuse me of refusing to acknowledge it.

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 12-01-2010 at 02:43 PM..
 
Old 12-01-2010, 02:45 PM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,948,164 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Interested readers will decide for themselves after examining the evidence that is available.

Dozens of Greek scholars demonstrate how the ET Greek scholars are wrong.

THE FOLLOWING HAS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE TRUE REGARDING THE DEBATE ABOUT ETERNAL TORMENT

The argument about “eternal hell” nearly always gets bogged down with the words, “My Greek scholars are more reliable than your Greek scholars,” and the result is nearly always a stalemate.

My Greek scholars are Louis Abbott and the many Greek scholars he quotes in chapters three and twelve of
AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS
An Analytical Study of Words

Also see
TIME AND ETERNITY A BIBLICAL STUDY
TIME AND ETERNITY: A Biblical Study

Also see
THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

If you think it glorifies God more to let some of His creatures suffer forever, or annihilate them, then you keep believing that.

But if you think it glorifies God more to eventually meet everyone on the level of their greatest and deepest need which is a change in their stubborn will, then know that there is plenty of evidence in the Bible that that is exactly what God is like.
Oh please, Louis Abbott? Is he not a representative of the Watchtower Society? The fact is you don't want to hear about any Greek Scholars, because your side does not have any credible one's that would support your doctrine. In fact, much of what you believe will be found in the New World Translation. A translation that has already been condemned as more of a perversion. And Scholars around the world know the translation was perverted, in order to get the Bible to agree with your doctrine. And not the other way around. What glorifies God. Is not some perverted translation dismissed by most serious Scholars. What glorifies God, (IS THE TRUTH).

Tell me. What do you think of the New World Translation?
 
Old 12-01-2010, 03:08 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,387,835 times
Reputation: 259
Default What glorifies god the most

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Oh please, Louis Abbott? Is he not a representative of the Watchtower Society? The fact is you don't want to hear about any Greek Scholars, because your side does not have any credible one's that would support your doctrine. In fact, much of what you believe will be found in the New World Translation. A translation that has already been condemned as more of a perversion. And Scholars around the world know the translation was perverted, in order to get the Bible to agree with your doctrine. And not the other way around. What glorifies God. Is not some perverted translation dismissed by most serious Scholars. What glorifies God, (IS THE TRUTH).

Tell me. What do you think of the New World Translation?
No, Louis Abbott is not JW, and I don't know much about the New World Translation except that it's JW I think.

Did you not read the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve?
None of them are JW either.

Neither are any of these scholars JW.
THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

It really does come down to which scholars you choose believe.
I choose the ones whose conclusions IMO glorifies God the most.

You probably do too, but we have infinitely different ideas of what glorifies God the most.
Will Jesus allow anyone to suffer forever?
No, He won't.
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved

Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-01-2010 at 03:12 PM.. Reason: punctuation
 
Old 12-01-2010, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,387,835 times
Reputation: 259
The reason I know none of my Greek scholars are JW is because all of mine are URs and JWs are annihilationists.
 
Old 12-01-2010, 03:24 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 4,172,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
the reason i know none of my greek scholars are jw is because all of mine are urs and jws are annihilationists.
 
Old 12-01-2010, 07:25 PM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,948,164 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
No, Louis Abbott is not JW, and I don't know much about the New World Translation except that it's JW I think.

Did you not read the quotes by the many Greek scholars in chapters three and twelve?
None of them are JW either.

Neither are any of these scholars JW.
THE SCHOLAR’S CORNER FOR THE STUDY OF BIBLICAL UNIVERSALISM
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism

It really does come down to which scholars you choose believe.
I choose the ones whose conclusions IMO glorifies God the most.

You probably do too, but we have infinitely different ideas of what glorifies God the most.
Will Jesus allow anyone to suffer forever?
No, He won't.
The Law of Circularity: Will Jesus Torture Billions Forever? How Men Are Saved
When Jesus tells us that the lost will enter a time of everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal. That understanding has been clear for the last 2,000 years. Your beliefs and teachings counter what has been understood from the very beginning. And the Bible warned us of such future changes. Your belief that Jesus will not allow anyone to suffer forever. Is more of a humanistic approach, then a Biblical one. All through Scripture we see where Jesus will be casting people into a furnace of eternal flames and punishment. We see Scripture telling us that God will be tormenting people with fire. I'm sorry if you are upset that God punishes evil men. Yet God has done this from the beginning. And that is why the Bible gives strong warnings for all to follow God. When God killed off every man, woman, and child on the face of the earth during the time of the flood. That should give you a little insight into the God of the Bible. He is not a God that jokes around. And God was not worried in the least. That some would consider His killing of all the people on the planet, less then glorifying. My ideas do differ from yours. And that is because my ideas are the same ideas that have been accepted as Biblical truth from the ancient of times. Your ideas are a departure from that understanding.
 
Old 12-01-2010, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,387,835 times
Reputation: 259
Lightbulb For more than the first 500 years after Christ

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
That understanding has been clear for the last 2,000 years. Your beliefs and teachings counter what has been understood from the very beginning. My ideas do differ from yours. And that is because my ideas are the same ideas that have been accepted as Biblical truth from the ancient of times. Your ideas are a departure from that understanding.
For more than the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.
Contents - Universalism: The Prevailing Doctrine of the Early Church

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.

And they were reading the Bible in its original language!!

TRACING UNIVERSALIST THOUGHT THROUGH CHURCH HISTORY
Well known Christian church leaders who believed and taught Biblical universalism.
Including a link to a separate list of famous people embracing Christian universalism.
Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History

CHURCH LEADERS WHO BELIEVED AND TAUGHT UNIVERSALISM DURING THE EARLIEST CENTURIES OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH
1. THE SIBYLLINE ORACLES – 150 A.D. – composed by Christian universalist writers
2. THE BASILIDIANS – 130 A.D.
3. THE CARPOCRATIANS – 140 A.D.
4. IRENAEUS -- 130A.D.
5. CLEMENS ALEXANDRIUS – 150 A.D.
6. THEOPHILUS – 169 A.D.
7. ORIGEN – 185 A.D.
8. GREGORY THAUMATURGUS – 220 A.D.
9. EUSEBIUS OF CAECAREA – 265 A.D.
10. ATHANASIUS – 296 A.D.
11. MARCELLUS OF ANCYRA – 315 A.D.
12. DIDYMUS OF ALEXANDRIA – 300 A.D.
13. GREGORY NYSSEN – 332 A.D.
14. HILLARY OF POICTIERS – 354 A.D.
15. ISADORE OF ALEXANDRIA – 370 A.D.
16. EVAGRIUS PONTICUS – 390 A.D.
17. AMBROSE OF MILAN – 339 A.D.
18. JEROME – 340 A.D.
19. TITUS OF BOSTRA – 340 A.D.
20. JOHN CASSIAN – 360 A.D.
21. DIODORE OF TARSUS – 370 A.D.
22. GREGORY OF NANZIANZUS – 370 A.D.
23. THEODORUS OF MOPSUESTIA – 380 A.D.
24. RUFINUS – 390 A.D.
25. THEODORET OF CYPRUS – 393 A.D.
26. THE MONKS OF NITRIA – 399 A.D.
27. PALLADIA OF GALLATIA – 400 A.D.
28. CYRIL OF ALEXANDRIA – 412 A.D.
29. MAXIMUS OF TURIN – 422 A.D.
30. THE MONKS OF CESAREA IN PALESTINE - 430-450 A.D.
31. PETER CHRYSOLOGUS OF RAVENNA – 435 A.D.
32. GENNADIUS OF CONSTANTINOPLE – 458 A.D.
33. BARSUDAILI HIEROTHEUS – 490 A.D.
34. ALEXANDER OF ABYLA – 540 A.D.
35. MAXIMUS – 645 A.D.
36. CLEMENT OF IRELAND – 740 AD

Quotes by these Christian church leaders are recorded in Bob Evely’s book called
AT THE END OF THE AGES – THE ABOLITION OF HELL

Due to the influence of the reasoning of Augustine the church council voted to make eternal torment an official church doctrine in the sixth century.

But even Augustine himself said, “There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments.” And they were reading the Bible in its original language!!

The argument was introduced by Augustine, and since his day incessantly repeated, that if aionios kolasis does not mean "endless punishment," then there is no security for the believer that aionios zoe means "endless life," and that he will enjoy the promise of endless happiness.

But Matt. 25:46 shows the "eonian chastisement" and "eonian life" are of the same duration-lasting during the eons, and when the eons end, as Scripture states they will (1 Cor. 10:11; Heb. 9:26), the time called "eonian" is past and the life called "eonian" is finished, but life continues beyond the eons, as Paul teaches at 1 Cor. 15:26: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." That is, the last, the final one in order.

How will it be destroyed? First Corinthians 15:22 gives the answer: "For as IN ADAM ALL are dying, even so IN CHRIST ALL shall be made alive." Death is destroyed when ALL have been vivified, or made alive, IN CHRIST. There will then be no more death. Just as life is destroyed by death, so death is destroyed by life. Our present bodies are mortal and corruptible (1 Cor. 15:44-55), but when mankind is made alive IN CHRIST they will be raised immortal and incorruptible.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-01-2010 at 08:48 PM.. Reason: addition
 
Old 12-01-2010, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,387,835 times
Reputation: 259
Lightbulb What Jesus really taught about "hell"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
When Jesus tells us that the lost will enter a time of everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal.
What Jesus really taught about "hell."
Jesus' Teaching on Hell

and

Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
http://www.savior-of-all.com/aionian.html

Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-01-2010 at 08:40 PM.. Reason: addition
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