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Old 12-05-2010, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Your reading why more into 1 Timothy 2:4 than what is actually there. God wants all men to be save. Yet as Jesus points out, only a few find life. God does not (WILL) men to be saved. Salvation is a choice that man alone makes. God also wanted all the angels in heven to follow Him, yet this was not to be either. God is not the author of confusion. And if Jesus tells us that only a few will find life. God will only operate within the truth of the Bible. Suggesting we can ignore Jesus own words, and somhow believe that all mankind will be saved is not a Biblical belief. Nor is it a belief that agrees with Christ own words.
Campbell, your saying that God's desiring to save all men. Is that what your saying?

 
Old 12-05-2010, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,126 posts, read 2,572,263 times
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Lightbulb Many confuse the kingdom of God with heaven.

Many confuse the kingdom of God with heaven.

The bottom line is a failure to "rightly divide" the Word of God (2 Timothy 2:15). One cannot simply dig in to God's Word just anywhere, expecting that it is speaking of our current situation or era.

We must remember that Jesus, in His earthly ministry, spoke to the sheep of Israel ... not to the entire world. Israel had been God's chosen people and they were anticipating a fulfillment of the prophecies pointing to a restoration of that kingdom. This is the aspect of the kingdom that Jesus spoke about ... preparing Israel for life in the kingdom when it became a reality upon the earth. (We will see this happen with the return of Christ at the end of Revelation).

Jesus was calling for belief, that He was indeed the Son of God ... the One commissioned by God. Those that would believe this would have life eonian (John 3:16). Those not believing would experience eonian chastisement; but this is not a permanent condition and does not nullify God's ultimate plan to reconcile all to Himself.

Eonian life refers to life in the time to come when Christ reigns upon the earth. As Jesus spoke about this, He spoke as if it was an imminent thing. And if Israel would have believed, the kingdom upon the earth would have immediately followed. But this was not to be (in accord with God's plan). The King was rejected and crucified. But He will come again, and He will reign upon the earth. And those living in bodies of flesh at that time must take heed of the calls to belief and righteous behavior found in Jesus' earthly teachings.

Likewise in the Luke 9 passage, no one who puts his hand on the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God. Truly, one's righteousness must exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees to enter. Who among men can exhibit the righteousness necessary to enter? So who, then, can be saved? (see Matthew 19:26-27 when the disciples asked Jesus this question.) With men it is impossible; but with God all is possible.

It's not about men, or the choices men make ... for men are not able to make the right choices. It's all about God; thankfully. Much of what Jesus said in His earthly ministry exhibits man's inabilities. (See the Sermon on the Mount for example.) So while it looks, at times, that at least some will not be saved ... this is always a temporal condition. Remember; with God all is possible. And with God, in accord with His plan, all will ultimately be saved.

Turning now to the 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 passage ... clearly when Paul says these things he, too, is talking about the earthly aspect of the kingdom ... the kingdom that is eventually to come upon the earth. None exhibiting the behaviors Paul outlines are fit to enter the kingdom. A change must take place before they can enter. When death is finally defeated, and when we are given immortal bodies (see 1 Corinthians 15) God will have accomplished something man cannot accomplish. If any of us tries to look at the list Paul itemizes in 1 Corinthians 6, saying that we do not do these things and are therefore fit to enter the kingdom, while judging those who are doing these things saying they are not fit ... are we not doing the very thing Paul cautions against in Romans 2?

There is no question that we will account for our words and our behaviors; believer and unbeliever alike. Truly there are behaviors that are unacceptable in the sight of God, and these must be dealt with. But thankfully God is in control. And where things seem impossible if left to man, they are not impossible when left to God.

Any of calls to belief and good behavior found in the Scriptures, and the choices made by men, lead to temporal consequences. But none of this can thwart God's plan to ultimately save all mankind. God is the Saviour of all men, especially [but not exclusively] believers. (1 Timothy 4:10).

God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)

God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11)

As in Adam all are dying; thus also in Christ will all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)
 
Old 12-05-2010, 02:27 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,227,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
No HE (Jesus said it) in the Present Tense. The King James version is based on the Textus Receptus. Here is that Greek text parsed:

Mat 7:14 οτι G3754 CONJ στενη G4728 A-NSF η G3588 T-NSF πυλη G4439 N-NSF και G2532 CONJ τεθλιμμενη G2346 V-RPP-NSF η G3588 T-NSF οδος G3598 N-NSF η G3588 T-NSF απαγουσα G520 V-PAP-NSF εις G1519 PREP την G3588 T-ASF ζωην G2222 N-ASF και G2532 CONJ ολιγοι G3641 A-NPM εισιν G1510 V-PAI-3P οι G3588 T-NPM ευρισκοντες G2147 V-PAP-NPM αυτην G846 P-ASF

So what is V-PAP? - it is PRESENT ACTIVE PARTICPLE. So if your quoting the King James version then your quoting a meaning that is PRESENT Tense.

New King James Version - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia







Oh please. It matters little what translation you find that verse in. They all read pretty much the same as I stated. Why don't you stop wasting our time and show us the verse as it reads in your translation?
 
Old 12-05-2010, 02:30 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,227,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Campbell, your saying that God's desiring to save all men. Is that what your saying?




Yes in the same way that God desired all the angels in heaven to follow Him, or all the people of earth to follow Him before the flood, ect.
 
Old 12-05-2010, 02:35 PM
 
14,775 posts, read 7,528,627 times
Reputation: 1233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Your reading why more into 1 Timothy 2:4 than what is actually there. God wants all men to be save. Yet as Jesus points out, only a few find life. God does not (WILL) men to be saved. Salvation is a choice that man alone makes. God also wanted all the angels in heaven to follow Him, yet this was not to be either. God is not the author of confusion. And if Jesus tells us that only a few will find life. God will only operate within the truth of the Bible. Suggesting we can ignore Jesus own words, and somhow believe that all mankind will be saved is not a Biblical belief. Nor is it a belief that agrees with Christ own words.
There are many who only want a few of the desired amount and those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires, but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. I have found that in the most difficult times in life, the Spirit has a gentle way of holding us up and shining light, love, peace and hope into our minds and hearts. We just need to remember that this infinite, unconditional love, lives within each of us.

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."
 
Old 12-05-2010, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Oh please. It matters little what translation you find that verse in. They all read pretty much the same as I stated. Why don't you stop wasting our time and show us the verse as it reads in your translation?
The Textus Receptus is the source text for the KJV. The YLT conveys a better understanding of the underlying source:

Mat 7:14 how strait is the gate, and compressed the way that is leading to the life, and few are those finding it!

Again, note that is PRESENT Tense.
 
Old 12-05-2010, 03:01 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,284,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Yes in the same way that God desired all the angels in heaven to follow Him, or all the people of earth to follow Him before the flood, ect.
So you believe God desires all to be saved. Do you believe that God always eventually gets what He desires?
 
Old 12-05-2010, 04:15 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,227,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
There are many who only want a few of the desired amount and those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires, but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. I have found that in the most difficult times in life, the Spirit has a gentle way of holding us up and shining light, love, peace and hope into our minds and hearts. We just need to remember that this infinite, unconditional love, lives within each of us.

"We are not predestinated to sin, that's choice; but we are predestined to holiness."

The Spirit has already told us what He desires, yet He also told us what will be. And this is as far as the East is from the West. Only a sinful nature would ignore the words of Jesus prophecy. Gods Spirit will guide us in all truth. Yet His spirit will not contradict His Biblical words of truth. We are sinners already when we are born. We become only Holy before God, when we freely give our life to Jesus.
 
Old 12-05-2010, 04:18 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,227,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
So you believe God desires all to be saved. Do you believe that God always eventually gets what He desires?
No. If God always got what He desired, He never would of flooded the earth.
 
Old 12-05-2010, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,284,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
No. If God always got what He desired, He never would of flooded the earth.
Do you believe God is Almighty?
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