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Old 12-08-2010, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
55,964 posts, read 30,346,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Finn, why are you ignoring trettep's question?
No, I already replied to it.

PS There is no need for you to police every comment made on the board.

 
Old 12-08-2010, 07:46 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,139 posts, read 2,685,764 times
Reputation: 243
Post Give us the post number where you answered trettep

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, I already replied to it.

PS There is no need for you to police every comment made on the board.
Give us the post number where you answered the following question.

BTW, policing comments is one of the things I do best.

Originally Posted by trettep

Quote:
Now to the main point. Can you agree that the word for "finding" in Matthew 7:14 is indeed PRESENT Tense. Regardless of what ANY other scripture says, do you AFFIRM that in Matthew 7:14 the Greek word translated as "find" or "finding" was spoken in the PRESENT Tense?

Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-08-2010 at 07:50 AM.. Reason: quote marks
 
Old 12-08-2010, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,514,583 times
Reputation: 573
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
You don't, and you just proved it again. You cling to one, and disregard the others.

Hey, whatever gets you through the night....

Have a good one.
No, it isn't a disregard for the other.

But let's look at the other way. If you don't believe it is PRESENT Tense in Matthew 7:14 then you admit that you believe it is FUTURE Tense, correct?
 
Old 12-08-2010, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,514,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I'm not sure that really matters. The NIV appears to have it's own set of problems...
The NIV is based on the Westcott Hort translation and even Matthew 7:14 is PRESENT Tense in that version.

Westcott Hort (Greek)
Mat 7:14 | οτιG3754 CONJ | τιG5101 I-NSN | στενηG4728 A-NSF ηG3588 T-NSF πυληG4439 N-NSF καιG2532 CONJ τεθλιμμενηG2346 V-RPP-NSF ηG3588 T-NSF οδοςG3598 N-NSF ηG3588 T-NSF απαγουσαG520 V-PAP-NSF ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF ζωηνG2222 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ ολιγοιG3641 A-NPM εισινG1510 V-PAI-3P οιG3588 T-NPM ευρισκοντεςG2147 V-PAP-NPM αυτηνG846 P-ASF

V-PAP = Verb PRESENT ACTIVE PARTICIPLE

The translation can't be greater than its source. That would be like saying that a FAX is more original then the original.
 
Old 12-08-2010, 08:30 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
55,964 posts, read 30,346,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
No, it isn't a disregard for the other.

But let's look at the other way. If you don't believe it is PRESENT Tense in Matthew 7:14 then you admit that you believe it is FUTURE Tense, correct?
No, you are the only one here bickering about the tenses. I said that if you compare scripture to scripture you will learn what Jesus means about the gates. Clearly Luke says that few people will EVER enter. Study the whole Bible and learn what is means. If you think that Jesus' words do not apply to present day, and future say because you found a word in present tense, then that's what you believe.

Like I said: whatever gets you through the night.
 
Old 12-08-2010, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,139 posts, read 2,685,764 times
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Exclamation The tense matters very much

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, you are the only one here bickering about the tenses. I said that if you compare scripture to scripture you will learn what Jesus means about the gates. Clearly Luke says that few people will EVER enter.
The tense matters very much as I'm sure trettep will explain.

Just a note from your "bickering cop."
 
Old 12-08-2010, 08:35 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,105,718 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Jesus was talking about the Jews, and He wasn't worried.
He knew what was going to happen.

It is true that Jesus said “narrow is the way, and few there will be that find it.” But consider the context. During Jesus’ earthly ministry He also said that He came only to the sheep of Israel … not to the Gentiles. Jesus’ earthly agenda was to prepare His people (Israel) for the restoration of the kingdom upon the earth. And for this, the people needed “superabounding righteousness” … they needed to “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt 5:48).

Before Jesus’ earthly ministry was concluded, and as He set forth all of the kingdom conditions, His disciples asked him, “Who consequently can be saved?” (Matt 19:25). Jesus response: “With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible.” Narrow is the way for this kind of righteousness being required. So Israel was set aside (temporarily, not permanently – see Romans 11:25-26) until the millenial age that follows the one we are in right now.

But thru Paul, God began to do a new thing. Paul begins to talk about the body of Christ … justification (not just pardon) … grace alone (not grace + works). If left to men to respond with obedience (as was the call in that day) who could be saved? But all is possible with God, and that is what Paul tells us about.

Jesus also said that many are called, but few are chosen Matthew 22:14. It is the conclusion to a parable Jesus is tellings that concerns the kingdom. Like I said before, in Jesus' lifetime He went only to the Jews ... the "sheep of Israel." And this parable is intended to explain that while all of Israel was called, only SOME were fit to enter the wedding festivities. Most within Israel had rejected the King, and could not enter the feast ... they were not chosen. This rejection by the Jews continues, and much later Paul would explain that this "callousness" had come upon Israel until the full complement of the nations may enter (i.e. the body of Christ).

The "many are called and few are chosen" pertains to Israel, in the day that Jesus was proclaiming the kingdom to be established upon the earth. When this was rejected, Israel was temporarily set aside as the body of Christ is gathered (as in this present day) until the millenium.

But none of this can take away from the final climax of human history, when God becomes All in all ... when as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be made alive ... yet each in his own class. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

Those that use the "many are called but few are chosen" to say that only SOME will be saved are taking the parable out of context. It is true that only SOME were chosen in that day during which Jesus spoke, but once God's plan for all mankind is fully revealed ... after the death and resurrection of Christ and after the subsequent revelations made to the apostle Paul following the rejection of the kingdom message by Israel ... we see that ALL mankind will be saved.

God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)

God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11)

As in Adam all are dying; thus also in Christ will all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)
Excellent Post!
 
Old 12-08-2010, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,514,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, you are the only one here bickering about the tenses. I said that if you compare scripture to scripture you will learn what Jesus means about the gates. Clearly Luke says that few people will EVER enter. Study the whole Bible and learn what is means. If you think that Jesus' words do not apply to present day, and future say because you found a word in present tense, then that's what you believe.

Like I said: whatever gets you through the night.
No bickering Finn_Jarber, I'm trying to understand how you read Matthew 7:14. Do you believe it is PRESENT or FUTURE tense?
 
Old 12-08-2010, 09:29 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
55,964 posts, read 30,346,577 times
Reputation: 8758
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
The tense matters very much as I'm sure trettep will explain.

Just a note from your "bickering cop."
This kind of bickering is the reason why I am losing interest in this board.

Too bad, but I am not interested in unpleasantries, bickering, games, reading the same post 50 times and having people demand that others reply in someone post in a way which satisfies the poster.

Thanks, but no thanks Believe what you wish.

Never mind. I am sorry I even stopped by.
 
Old 12-08-2010, 09:30 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,270,017 times
Reputation: 325
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
The NIV is based on the Westcott Hort translation and even Matthew 7:14 is PRESENT Tense in that version.

Westcott Hort (Greek)
Mat 7:14 | οτιG3754 CONJ | τιG5101 I-NSN | στενηG4728 A-NSF ηG3588 T-NSF πυληG4439 N-NSF καιG2532 CONJ τεθλιμμενηG2346 V-RPP-NSF ηG3588 T-NSF οδοςG3598 N-NSF ηG3588 T-NSF απαγουσαG520 V-PAP-NSF ειςG1519 PREP τηνG3588 T-ASF ζωηνG2222 N-ASF καιG2532 CONJ ολιγοιG3641 A-NPM εισινG1510 V-PAI-3P οιG3588 T-NPM ευρισκοντεςG2147 V-PAP-NPM αυτηνG846 P-ASF

V-PAP = Verb PRESENT ACTIVE PARTICIPLE

The translation can't be greater than its source. That would be like saying that a FAX is more original then the original.
Hey, I'm in full agreement with you . The verb used in Mat. is in the present tense. Although to be fair, Luke (Luk 13:24) uses the future tense of those who will seek to enter in and will not be able. But this is speaking of a works based entrance into the Kingdom, not of those entering by grace. So the issue, as I understand it, is really not so much about the timing (present or future) but how one enters the Kingdom.

Rom 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.

Regarding the WH Greek text: I'm not a fan of the WH or UBS Greek texts. The Majority Text (the Textus Receptus or one of it's close Byzantine derivatives) are most likely in keeping with the original manuscripts. But to be honest, I'm not an expert on textual criticism and my ignorance is probably biased.

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-08-2010 at 09:51 AM.. Reason: typo
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