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Old 12-13-2010, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,435,087 times
Reputation: 216
Exclamation TORTURING DOUBTS; and, EXULTANT FAITH

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Nice try Rodger, I do NOT believe in ET.

And any mother who would kill their children, is freaking looney,,,
No, not "freaking looney," Hot. Just acting on the fact that they truly believed in what most Christians are taught is "the word of God."

Hot, I am glad you don't believe in ET.

But in my opinion the idea that there is a magical split-second in time before which a child, if they die, will go to heaven, and after which, if they die as a child, they will be annihilated after they are raised from the dead and judged that you call the “the age of accountability,” IMO is rediculous.

Of course, if you believe like sciotamicks's Full Preterists/Covenant Creationism theology, all the little children who die just cease to exist along with all of the adults who don't become a Christian before they die.

I wonder how sciotamicks comforts parents who lose a child?

I'm glad the following doesn't apply to you Hot.

Here is a snippet from UR James Coram's
TORTURING DOUBTS; and, EXULTANT FAITH

"I for my part cannot understand how anyone who believes in an eternal hell dares to bring children into the world.
It has often seemed to me that it would be better to be born as an animal than a human being.
An animal may have to endure awful sufferings, but there is always the certainty that these will once end, whereas the lost sinner has no such hope."
TORTURING DOUBTS; and, EXULTANT FAITH
biblical studies: Torturing Doubts and Exultant Faith

I am so glad there is a point of view of scripture that is so very different than ET and AN and FPCC theology!!!

A great introductory series to ultimate reconciliation.
J. Preston Eby does a thorough job covering many aspects of the topic. Fundamental reading for any person interested in studying universalism from a solid biblical perspective.
Highly Recommended!
THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD
Kingdom Bible Studies: J. Preston Eby, Kingdom of God; Saviour of The World

Eusebius summed up my feelings so well when he said on his last post.
"Isn't it nice though that Christ did die for all babies, little ones and adults and that all of them will one day enter into the blessings Christ died to bring them into?"

Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-13-2010 at 12:11 PM.. Reason: correction

 
Old 12-13-2010, 02:58 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,250,078 times
Reputation: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Dear Alabama,
The reason "all sin and fall short of the glory of God" and that includes children, is due to death being passed into them from Adam (Romans 5:12).

How can a baby be a sinner? They are dying or in a dying condition from birth. Often the dying is so prevalant they die right after birth.

All babies need saved by what Christ did even if they died a split second after being born.

Also, the scripture states:
Mat 18:10 "See that you should not be despising one of these little ones, for I am saying to you that their messengers in the heavens are continually observing the face of My Father Who is in the heavens."

Those little ones are still sinners. Could it be that christ was not talking about ever "little one" in the whole world but those specific little ones who came to Christ? That is just a question.

Isn't it nice though that Christ did die for all babies, little ones and adults and that all of them will one day enter into the blessings Christ died to bring them into?
Yes, I too believe that spiritual death is passed on to children as a consequence of Adam's sin. And like you, I also believe all children, infants and adults enter the Kingdom through the grace of Christ.

I'm still curious though where Finn places these little ones who die within his "path" that he was describing.
 
Old 12-13-2010, 03:04 PM
 
10,142 posts, read 4,383,342 times
Reputation: 727
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Yes, I too believe that spiritual death is passed on to children as a consequence of Adam's sin. And like you, I also believe all children, infants and adults enter the Kingdom through the grace of Christ.

I'm still curious though where Finn places these little ones who die within his "path" that he was describing.
Alabama, I don't believe in anything called "spiritual death." The bible just says that "death passed through into all mankind" in Romans 5:12. Now all mankind are literally dying. And since literal death is operating in all mankind, all mankind sin.
 
Old 12-13-2010, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,213 posts, read 3,031,017 times
Reputation: 400
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post

I wonder how sciotamicks comforts parents who lose a child?
Believers in immortality from birth must reinterpret the Bible to say:

Those who are destroyed are not destroyed. James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7

Those who perish do not perish. 1 Corinthians 1:8: John 3:16.

Those who die do not die. Romans 6:23 Death is not death.

The end of the wicked is not their end. Philippians 3:19; Hebrews 6:8.

Those who are consumed are not consumed Hebrews 10:27.

Mortals are born immortal 1 Timothy 6:16 therefore, how can there be any such thing as being mortal? There are no mortals and could never be a mortal if all men are created immortal.

The second death is not a death, it is eternal life with torment, or no torment and entrance into the kingdom as an immortal Revelation 21:8.

Paul says that God alone possesses immortality. And 1 Corinthians 15:53 teaches that the Redeemed will not become immortal until the time of their resurrection.

Eccl 3:18-21 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

You must prove that everyone is immortal before we can even go there.
 
Old 12-13-2010, 04:06 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,435,087 times
Reputation: 216
Lightbulb The all of first corinthians 15:22

Here is a snippet from James Coram's WHO ARE THE ALL?
From part his larger work called CRUCIAL QUESTIONS ABOUT RESURRECTION

"Some say that even though the apostle Paul declares that “all” shall be vivified in 1 Corinthians 15:22, we are to understand the “all” to be only all those who accept Christ and believe during their present lifetime.

Verse 22, however, informs us of no such thing! Instead, the purpose of verse 22 is to tell us why it is so that “through a man came death, [and] through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead” (verse 21).

The text explains that this is so, “for even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified” (verse 22). The antecedent, then, for “all” in both clauses of verse 22, is “man” (i.e., “human”), from the word “human” in both respective clauses of verse 21.

Therefore, the elliptical noun to be supplied following “all” in both clauses of verse 22 (“in Adam, all . . .”, “in Christ, all . . .”) is “humans,” that is, “mankind.”

WHO ARE THE ALL?
biblical studies: Crucial Questions About Resurrection

Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-13-2010 at 04:21 PM.. Reason: spacing
 
Old 12-13-2010, 04:15 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 1,250,078 times
Reputation: 320
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Alabama, I don't believe in anything called "spiritual death." The bible just says that "death passed through into all mankind" in Romans 5:12. Now all mankind are literally dying. And since literal death is operating in all mankind, all mankind sin.
I think corporal death is also included but I don't think it's the emphasis of what Paul is telling us here. I think the death Paul is speaking of is a very real death that we're born into:

Eph 2:1 Also you--being dead in the trespasses and the sins,

That part that was alienated from the life of God:

Eph 4:18 being darkened in the understanding, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart,

Our physical bodies, although subject to illness, frailty and finally death, is yet still alive albeit in a state of decay. But the part that is actually dead (not dying but dead, the death) is our spirit towards God. That spiritual aspect of our being that needs to be born anew from above.

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 12-13-2010 at 04:39 PM..
 
Old 12-13-2010, 04:53 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,013,480 times
Reputation: 865
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Believers in immortality from birth must reinterpret the Bible to say:

Those who are destroyed are not destroyed. James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7

Those who perish do not perish. 1 Corinthians 1:8: John 3:16.

Those who die do not die. Romans 6:23 Death is not death.

The end of the wicked is not their end. Philippians 3:19; Hebrews 6:8.

Those who are consumed are not consumed Hebrews 10:27.

Mortals are born immortal 1 Timothy 6:16 therefore, how can there be any such thing as being mortal? There are no mortals and could never be a mortal if all men are created immortal.

The second death is not a death, it is eternal life with torment, or no torment and entrance into the kingdom as an immortal Revelation 21:8.

Paul says that God alone possesses immortality. And 1 Corinthians 15:53 teaches that the Redeemed will not become immortal until the time of their resurrection.

Eccl 3:18-21 I said in my heart with regard to the children of man that God is testing them that they may see that they themselves are but beasts. For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return. Who knows whether the spirit of man goes upward and the spirit of the beast goes down into the earth?

You must prove that everyone is immortal before we can even go there.
Great deflection Sciotamicks. An excellent example of muddying the waters and providing a strawman argument in order to bow out of answering the question at hand.

I cannot answer for Roger, but i am willing to bet that he does not necessarily espouse the idea that all humans have an immortal soul.

That is not the point of rogers question, but i will answer your post anyway.

Only God is immortal, this is true. But all shall put on immortality ... For just as all die because of the disobedience of one man, so all shall be made alive because of the obedience of one man.




So in answer to your post above ...

Quote:
Those who are destroyed are not destroyed. James 4:12; 2 Peter 2:12; 2 Peter 3:7
Saul was destroyed and was born again as Paul ...

Quote:
Those who perish do not perish. 1 Corinthians 1:8: John 3:16.

Those who die do not die. Romans 6:23 Death is not death.
Saul Perished and was born again as Paul ...

Quote:
The end of the wicked is not their end. Philippians 3:19; Hebrews 6:8.
Saul truly had his end when he was born again as Paul ...

Quote:
Those who are consumed are not consumed Hebrews 10:27.
Saul was utterly consumed when he was born again as Paul ...

Quote:
The second death is not a death, it is eternal life with torment, or no torment and entrance into the kingdom as an immortal Revelation 21:8.
Did Saul truly die when he became Paul? Did we truly die with Christ when he died?

All will put on immortality when they are fully subjected to the kingdom of Christ. The torment of the lake of fire is really the testing of the lake of fire.

The word in the Greek is "basanizo" which literally means to test ...

Your concept of a "torture chamber" which God made to torture those who are a part of "the covenant" and who broke "the covenant" or who did not meet up to your idea of what "the covenant" requires is altogether a vain figment of your imagination. God does not torture people, people torture people ...

Gods judgments are for the purpose of bettering the people who are judged, in order to overcome evil with Good, and not to return evil for evil ...

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-13-2010 at 05:06 PM..
 
Old 12-13-2010, 05:07 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,435,087 times
Reputation: 216
Thumbs up Humans do not have an immortal soul

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Great deflection Sciotamicks. An excellent example of muddying the waters and providing a strawman argument in order to bow out of answering the question at hand.

I cannot answer for Rodger, but i am willing to bet that he does not necessarily espouse the idea that all humans have an immortal soul.
You won the bet, Ironmaw.

HUMANS DO NOT HAVE AN IMMORTAL SOUL
But like you say, all shall put on immortality.
That is what my post #945 is all about.

Good post Ironmaw!!

Last edited by rodgertutt; 12-13-2010 at 05:17 PM.. Reason: addition
 
Old 12-13-2010, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,213 posts, read 3,031,017 times
Reputation: 400
Only those in Christ shall put on immortality...just as only those "in Adam" died....Adam was not the first biological man on earth, and neither was Christ the last man on earth. Adam was the first man brought into covenant with God...that is all the Bible says about it. To impose that he is the first man biologically, imposes a paradigm non existent in the text. Romans 5:13 says....for until law...not the mosaic law, but the LAW OF SIN AND DEATH...the one Adam instilled...there was sin in the world.

Whose sin? What sin? If there was sin, then there were people, before Adam. Adam isn't the first man. First man "in Covenant" with God. Christ disannuled the covenant with death. He gave LIFE to those in Adam, by the faith of Abraham, through circumcised Israel, and faith IN CHRIST.
Those in Covenant. Those of all living. Your paradigm falls short.
 
Old 12-13-2010, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,976 posts, read 1,435,087 times
Reputation: 216
Lightbulb The "all" is all mankind

Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Only those in Christ shall put on immortality
Sooner or later everyone will be in Christ.

Here is a snippet from James Coram's WHO ARE THE ALL?
From part his larger work called CRUCIAL QUESTIONS ABOUT RESURRECTION

"Some say that even though the apostle Paul declares that “all” shall be vivified in 1 Corinthians 15:22, we are to understand the “all” to be only all those who accept Christ and believe during their present lifetime.

Verse 22, however, informs us of no such thing! Instead, the purpose of verse 22 is to tell us why it is so that “through a man came death, [and] through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead” (verse 21).

The text explains that this is so, “for even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified” (verse 22). The antecedent, then, for “all” in both clauses of verse 22, is “man” (i.e., “human”), from the word “human” in both respective clauses of verse 21.

Therefore, the elliptical noun to be supplied following “all” in both clauses of verse 22 (“in Adam, all . . .”, “in Christ, all . . .”) is “humans,” that is, “mankind.”

WHO ARE THE ALL?
biblical studies: Crucial Questions About Resurrection
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