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Joe you are absolutely right. God is always the FIRST cause of goodness in man or any being for that matter. No man can love God without God first revealing His love to them, however, once God does reveal His love to man, man is free to reject it.
Israel is a perfect example of willful rejection after God's calling. Even Jesus said he wanted to gather Israel under his wings, but they were not willing.
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
"No man can come to Me except the Father draw him."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
Israel is a perfect example of willful rejection after God's calling. Even Jesus said he wanted to gather Israel under his wings, but they were not willing.
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
Jesus was making an observation, not a condemnation.
Jesus well knew why they were not inclined to accept Him.
"No man can come to Me except the Father Who sent Me draw him."
John 6:44
It's like legoman said
Quote:
Even our relationship with Christ, as others have said: we love Him because He first loved us. There is a cause - a reason - that led us to choose Christ. It was a reaction to God loving us. God draws and enables men to believe in Christ - then they believe in Christ. But before that point they will not come to Christ. Man will not choose Christ until God draws Him - then the man will choose Christ.
Its that simple. Love has nothing to do with 'free will'.
legoman, I love your illustration!
Here is how UR Ray Prinzing, my non-divine hero and mentor put it.
Ray’s illustration of God’s love that will not fail to eventually achieve a loving response from everyone goes like this.
A young man woos the girl he loves by continually speaking to her of his love for her and bringing her gift after gift for week after week and month after month until she becomes convinced that his love for her is a life-long love, and so she eventually responds by giving him her love in return.
If the young man gives up trying to convince her of his love for her he has lost everything.
But if he never gives up until she agrees to marry him, then he goes to her house, gathers up all the gifts he gave her, AND HER, and takes them all back to his place for the rest of their lives.
It may be true that human love may never be able to achieve a loving response.
But God’s love is not hampered by the fallible limitations of human love.
With or without "kolasis aionion" (age-during corrective chastisement,) God's love will eventually win over everyone who needs saving.
Ray Prinzing wrote,
“Then the universe shall be made anew
Greater far than before the fall
When the Son puts all in the Father’s hand
And our God shall be All in all.”
Jesus was making an observation, not a condemnation.
Jesus well knew why they were not inclined to accept Him.
"No man can come to Me except the Father Who sent Me draw him."
John 6:44
I didn't say it was about condemnation, I said it was an example of willful rejection. Israel rejected God more times that I can count, and God tried and tried to draw them back. He sent angels, prophets, faitful kings and even his own son, but they were not willing. They CHOSE rejection.
When Jesus said "how many times I wanted to gather you under my wings, but you wouldn't let me", it is clear that he tried to draw them, but He was rejected. The Bible says Christ draws all men, but it also says they not everyone will come.
Israel is a perfect example of willful rejection after God's calling. Even Jesus said he wanted to gather Israel under his wings, but they were not willing.
Matthew 23:37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God’s messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn’t let me.
God blinded Israel and hardened them, that is why they would not let Christ gather them under his wing. It is in order to prove that the carnal unregenerate nature of humanity cannot receive the things of the spirit of God. But God will heal them of their unbelief and blindness and take the heart of stone away from them and give them hearts of flesh when the time is right.
They were MADE enemies of the Gospel for the sake of the world. Read romans 11 for crying out loud ...
God blinded Israel, they were MADE enemies of the Gospel for the sake of the world. Read romans 11 for crying out loud ...
For crying out loud??? Are you angry? Why?
Jesus is referring to the past when he says "how many times have I wanted?". He tried over and over and over, and Israel kept rejecting Him. Eventually He hardened their hearts, so at present their hearts are hardened.
Jesus is referring to the past when he says "how many times have I wanted?". He tried over and over and over, and Israel kept rejecting Him. Eventually He hardened their hearts, so at present their hearts are hardened.
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him.
If God wanted to heal Israel of their unbelief, you better believe he could do it, and one day he will do it.
One day he will purify them by fire, and he will cleanse them. He is like a refiners fire and like a fullers soap, and one day he will purify them like silver and gold, and they will then quit rejecting Christ and be healed.
PS
No i'm not angry silly, i'm just flabbergasted at the level of misunderstanding that so many people who are supposed to be students of the scripture are at.
Read the whole bible, not just the parts that you think support your understanding.
Does it really matter one second of excruciating pain with no hope of relief can be stretch out forever and actually be only one second. Of course annilation would be a form of hope which those in hell never have.
They will then quit rejecting Christ and be healed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
"For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.
I create the fruit of the lips; Peace, peace to him that is far off, and to him that is near, saith the LORD; and I will heal him."
If God wanted to heal Israel of their unbelief, you better believe He could do it, and one day he will do it.
One day he will purify them by fire, and he will cleanse them. He is like a refiners fire and like a fullers soap, and one day he will purify them like silver and gold, and they will then quit rejecting Christ and be healed.
Read the whole Bible, not just the parts that you think support your understanding.
WHY?
Why did God make the universe, the earth and sky above?
Scripture gives the answer when it says that “God is Love”.
Before God made the universe He worked out a master plan.
He knew how everything would end before it all began.
He made mankind so He could have an object for His love,
But man was blind and did not see that it came from above.
So God created evil as He had created night,
So man could see the good in Him - In darkness we see light.
He made the “blackboard” very black, with evil, sin, and woe.
He made an adversary to be His cunning foe.
He made the earth to be a “stage” to show the hosts above,
By all of our experiences, His wisdom and His love.
He locks up all in stubbornness to make His mercy clear;
Lets Satan lure all men away so He can draw all near.
He gives His only firstborn Son to die and save us all.
Yet each in his own class we read; we’re blind until our call.
You ask me why God made the earth, the glittering stars above?
The Scriptures give the answer when they say that "God is love”.
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"No man can come to Me except the Father draw him."
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They will then quit rejecting Christ and be healed
