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Thanks for the links ... But there is nothing they can say that will persuade me that the early church fathers taught and believed in what you have taught here on this forum.
From Hyper/Full Preterism to Covenant Creationism ...
Though you may be able to supply a few passages from a few of the fathers that might be interpreted to in some way that seems to agree with what you teach(such as Eusebius, 300 years after Christ), by and large most of what you teach, from your eschatology to your general biblical hermeneutic, was not taught by the early church fathers ...
You can say i know nothing of the church fathers, but that is your own mistake. I do study them, and have been studying them for some time ...
And there are many biblical theological scholars and professors who would agree with me about this, even Covenant theologians, such as the ones i quoted above.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 12-14-2010 at 08:29 PM..
Thanks for the links ... But there is nothing they can say that will persuade me that the early church fathers taught and believed in what you have taught here on this forum.
From Hyper/Full Preterism to Covenant Creationism ...
Though you may be able to supply a few passages from a few of the fathers that might be interpreted to in some way that seems to agree with what you teach(such as Eusebius, 300 years after Christ), by and large most of what you teach, from your eschatology to your general biblical hermeneutic, was not taught by the early church fathers ...
You can say i know nothing of the church fathers, but that is your own mistake. I do study them, and have been studying them for some time ...
And there are many biblical theological scholars and professors who would agree with me about this, even Covenant theologians, such as the ones i quoted above.
I never thought for a moment you would be persuaded, but it is always good to know who you are debating against, and what they know....in that...I supplied some literature that I have studied extensively. Like I said in another thread, I teach this, but unloading it all in one post to you, would take me days and thousands of words. I know both you and I don't have that much time........or do we?
Come join us for a healthy and uplifting discussion:
My name is Ken.
Ken, knowing what you have already told us about FPCC theology (see page 97, post 961), I shall never be able to understand how your point of view can be regarded as "healthy and uplifting." In my opinion, the only thing FPCC has going for it is that it is a huge improvement on ET theology.
I suppose in that sense it can, simply by contrast, be regarded as "healthy and uplifting."
Here is a snippet from George Hawtin's THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS
(a truly "healthy and uplifting" theology)
"Some will no doubt say, as many do, that Peter was not promising that God would restore everything but only those things of which the prophets had spoken.
I wish, however, to show as clearly as possible that the grammatical construction of this sentence declares the exact opposite to be the truth. I mean that Peter was actually saying that all the prophets from the beginning of the world had prophesied that there would be a restoration of all things and that the restoration would indeed be universal and would include all things."
The tense matters very much as I'm sure trettep will explain.
Just a note from your "bickering cop."
Really rodgertutt, is not your beliefs of greater importance then Jesus own Words anyway? When Jesus tells us that only a few will enter the gate that leads to life. Is it not better that we ignore Jesus clear teachings, and imbrace yours? And when you stand before God, will you tell Him His dumb writings really got in the way of your personal beliefs? And your whole thing with (tense), would be rejected by most in the know anyway. Yet I suppose if that is all you have, then you must be forced to ignore the rest of the Biblical accounts.
Really rodgertutt, is not your beliefs of greater importance then Jesus own Words anyway? When Jesus tells us that only a few will enter the gate that leads to life. Is it not better that we ignore Jesus clear teachings, and imbrace yours? And when you stand before God, will you tell Him His dumb writings really got in the way of your personal beliefs? And your whole thing with (tense), would be rejected by most in the know anyway. Yet I suppose if that is all you have, then you must be forced to ignore the rest of the Biblical accounts.
Jesus NEVER said that. He said that few were finding the way (PRESENT TENSE). If Rodgertutt is going to believe anything then He has to believe what Christ said and not misundertandings of what Jesus said. And so far, on this subject I think rodgertutt has got that part right.
When Jesus tells us that only a few will enter the gate that leads to life. Is it not better that we ignore Jesus clear teachings, and imbrace yours?
Campbell, it only applied to the Jews during the time of Jesus.
FEW WILL ENTER THE GATE AND THE NARROW WAY AND THE FEW THAT FIND IT (present tense)
It is true that Jesus said “narrow is the way, and few there will be that find it.” But consider the context. During Jesus’ earthly ministry He also said that He came only to the sheep of Israel … not to the Gentiles. Jesus’ earthly agenda was to prepare His people (Israel) for the restoration of the kingdom upon the earth. And for this, the people needed “superabounding righteousness” … they needed to “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt 5:48).
Before Jesus’ earthly ministry was concluded, and as He set forth all of the kingdom conditions, His disciples asked him, “Who consequently can be saved?” (Matt 19:25). Jesus response: “With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible.” Narrow is the way for this kind of righteousness being required. So Israel was set aside (temporarily, not permanently – see Romans 11:25-26) until the millenial age that follows the one we are in right now.
But thru Paul, God began to do a new thing. Paul begins to talk about the body of Christ … justification (not just pardon) … grace alone (not grace + works). If left to men to respond with obedience (as was the call in that day) who could be saved? But all is possible with God, and that is what Paul tells us about.
Jesus also said that many are called, but few are chosen Matthew 22:14. It is the conclusion to a parable Jesus is tellings that concerns the kingdom. Like I said before, in Jesus' lifetime He went only to the Jews ... the "sheep of Israel." And this parable is intended to explain that while all of Israel was called, only SOME were fit to enter the wedding festivities. Most within Israel had rejected the King, and could not enter the feast ... they were not chosen. This rejection by the Jews continues, and much later Paul would explain that this "callousness" had come upon Israel until the full complement of the nations may enter (i.e. the body of Christ).
The "many are called and few are chosen" pertains to Israel, in the day that Jesus was proclaiming the kingdom to be established upon the earth. When this was rejected, Israel was temporarily set aside as the body of Christ is gathered (as in this present day) until the millenium.
But none of this can take away from the final climax of human history, when God becomes All in all ... when as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be made alive ... yet each in his own class. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
Those that use the "many are called but few are chosen" to say that only SOME will be saved are taking the parable out of context. It is true that only SOME were chosen in that day during which Jesus spoke, but once God's plan for all mankind is fully revealed ... after the death and resurrection of Christ and after the subsequent revelations made to the apostle Paul following the rejection of the kingdom message by Israel ... we see that ALL mankind will be saved.
God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11)
As in Adam all are dying; thus also in Christ will all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)
Campbell, it only applied to the Jews during the time of Jesus.
FEW WILL ENTER THE GATE AND THE NARROW WAY AND THE FEW THAT FIND IT (present tense)
It is true that Jesus said “narrow is the way, and few there will be that find it.” But consider the context. During Jesus’ earthly ministry He also said that He came only to the sheep of Israel … not to the Gentiles. Jesus’ earthly agenda was to prepare His people (Israel) for the restoration of the kingdom upon the earth. And for this, the people needed “superabounding righteousness” … they needed to “be perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect” (Matt 5:48).
Before Jesus’ earthly ministry was concluded, and as He set forth all of the kingdom conditions, His disciples asked him, “Who consequently can be saved?” (Matt 19:25). Jesus response: “With men this is impossible, yet with God all is possible.” Narrow is the way for this kind of righteousness being required. So Israel was set aside (temporarily, not permanently – see Romans 11:25-26) until the millenial age that follows the one we are in right now.
But thru Paul, God began to do a new thing. Paul begins to talk about the body of Christ … justification (not just pardon) … grace alone (not grace + works). If left to men to respond with obedience (as was the call in that day) who could be saved? But all is possible with God, and that is what Paul tells us about.
Jesus also said that many are called, but few are chosen Matthew 22:14. It is the conclusion to a parable Jesus is tellings that concerns the kingdom. Like I said before, in Jesus' lifetime He went only to the Jews ... the "sheep of Israel." And this parable is intended to explain that while all of Israel was called, only SOME were fit to enter the wedding festivities. Most within Israel had rejected the King, and could not enter the feast ... they were not chosen. This rejection by the Jews continues, and much later Paul would explain that this "callousness" had come upon Israel until the full complement of the nations may enter (i.e. the body of Christ).
The "many are called and few are chosen" pertains to Israel, in the day that Jesus was proclaiming the kingdom to be established upon the earth. When this was rejected, Israel was temporarily set aside as the body of Christ is gathered (as in this present day) until the millenium.
But none of this can take away from the final climax of human history, when God becomes All in all ... when as in Adam all are dying, thus also in Christ shall all be made alive ... yet each in his own class. (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)
Those that use the "many are called but few are chosen" to say that only SOME will be saved are taking the parable out of context. It is true that only SOME were chosen in that day during which Jesus spoke, but once God's plan for all mankind is fully revealed ... after the death and resurrection of Christ and after the subsequent revelations made to the apostle Paul following the rejection of the kingdom message by Israel ... we see that ALL mankind will be saved.
God wills that all mankind be saved (1 Timothy 2:4)
God is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will (Ephesians 1:11)
As in Adam all are dying; thus also in Christ will all be made alive (1 Corinthians 15:22)
Clearly John 3:36 tells us that He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son, (SHALL NOT SEE LIFE). Most people die and do not believe in the Son. Now trying to suggest that somehow this is taken care of later is a total lie. And is not supported by the Scriptures. The Bible tells us it is appointed once for man to be born and then the judgement. And that judgement is not somekind of work release program. Yes the Bible says all men shall be made alive. And in the Book of Daniel chapter 12 verse 2 it tells us some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contemp. Those who experience everlasting contemp are those who are burning in Hell. And Revelation 20:15 clearly teaches us that whsoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Your belief that everyone will be found in the Book of life is simply untrue and unbiblical. And I believe your teachings have more to do with doctrines of demons, then the Word of God.
Jesus NEVER said that. He said that few were finding the way (PRESENT TENSE). If Rodgertutt is going to believe anything then He has to believe what Christ said and not misundertandings of what Jesus said. And so far, on this subject I think rodgertutt has got that part right.
Jesus clearly teaches us in Matthew 13:41,42. The Son of man shall send froth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;(AND HE SHALL CAST THEM INTO A FURNACE OF FIRE; THERE SHALL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.)
I don's see anything in Scripture that would now suggest this condition will only be a probationary time of suffering. And if these people were placed there. Some how they will get out on good behaivour. Your beliefs are purly humanistic. And you can only believe what you do by only considering certain verses in the Bible. And you have to work extra hard at ignoring all the other verses that do not agree with this belief system.
Jesus clearly teaches us in Matthew 13:41,42. The Son of man shall send froth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;(AND HE SHALL CAST THEM INTO A FURNACE OF FIRE; THERE SHALL BE WAILING AND GNASHING OF TEETH.)
I don's see anything in Scripture that would now suggest this condition will only be a probationary time of suffering. And if these people were placed there. Some how they will get out on good behaivour. Your beliefs are purly humanistic. And you can only believe what you do by only considering certain verses in the Bible. And you have to work extra hard at ignoring all the other verses that do not agree with this belief system.
And you accept absurdities and ridiculous interpretations and abominations as if they are Good . . . because you do not properly DIVIDE the scriptures. It is an intellectual travesty.
Really rodgertutt, is not your beliefs of greater importance then Jesus own Words anyway? When Jesus tells us that only a few will enter the gate that leads to life.
So you believe you found the narrow gate, how wonderful of you .The scriptures teach a man can receive nothing unless it be given him from above. So you need to rethink how you arrived at what you suppose to be the narrow gate.So what is this narrow gate you have found ?, Jesus said "I am the gate" John 10:9, and he also said "No one can come to me(the gate) unless the Father who sent me draws him".John 6:44.Is this narrow gate a different gate to the one that Father drew you into ?.
Last edited by pcamps; 12-15-2010 at 12:51 PM..
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A "healthy and uplifting theology" ?
The clear teachings of jesus
