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Old 09-29-2010, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Do impenitent sinners suffer conscious punishment in body and soul for all eternity, or are they annihilated by God in the second death after suffering a temporary punishment?

The first part of the chapter analyzes the major Biblical texts and arguments used to support the literal view of hell as the place of a literal everlasting punishment of the wicked.



The second chapter considers briefly two alternative interpretations of hell.
  • 1. The metaphorical view - which regards hell as a place where suffering is more mental than physical. The fire is not literal but metaphorical, and the pain is caused more by the sense of separation from God than by physical torments.
  • 2. The Universalist view of hell, which turns hell into a purging, refining fire that ultimately makes it possible for every person to make it into heaven.
The third part of this chapter presents the annihilation view (to which I subscribe) of hell as a place of the ultimate dissolution and annihilation of the unsaved. Some call this "conditional immortality," because our study of the Biblical wholistic view of human nature shows that immortality is not an innate human possession, it is a divine gift granted to believers on condition of their faith response.

Hell: Eternal Torment or Annihilation

God will not resurrect the wicked to immortal life in order to inflict upon them a punishment of eternal pain. Rather the wicked will be resurrected mortal in order to receive their punishment which will result in their ultimate annihilation.

God Bless you.

In Christ's love...and prayerfully in His truth,
Verna.



NOTE:
...and to any who come here to do nothing more than post an opinion without even reading the study I provided...please, do us all a favor and refrain from doing so. I would like an intelligent conversation ABOUT this study with members who care enough to READ this study.

Mods...please deleat replies that do not discuss the study I provided. Thank you.

Last edited by Verna Perry; 09-29-2010 at 07:36 AM..

 
Old 09-29-2010, 07:08 AM
 
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Saul of Tarsus was struck down and then raised to be annihilated.
 
Old 09-29-2010, 08:20 AM
 
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Verna, you wrote:
Quote:
God will not resurrect the wicked to immortal life in order to inflict upon them a punishment of eternal pain. Rather the wicked will be resurrected mortal in order to receive their punishment which will result in their ultimate annihilation.
I agree that God will resurrect mortals as mortals. I also agree that when cast into the lake of fire, called the second death, they will be destroyed. But we know, at least some of us know, that they cannot be so destroyed that God cannot bring them out of the second death later.

The apostle Paul reveals a revelation beyond John's Revelation because Paul sees the day when Christ gives up the kingdom to God, all sovereignty, authority and power annulled, Christ quits reigning, death is abolished and all held by that death subjected to Christ, Christ subjected to God and then God All in all (1 Cor.15:22-28).

 
Old 09-29-2010, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Verna, you wrote:

I agree that God will resurrect mortals as mortals. I also agree that when cast into the lake of fire, called the second death, they will be destroyed. But we know, at least some of us know, that they cannot be so destroyed that God cannot bring them out of the second death later.

The apostle Paul reveals a revelation beyond John's Revelation because Paul sees the day when Christ gives up the kingdom to God, all sovereignty, authority and power annulled, Christ quits reigning, death is abolished and all held by that death subjected to Christ, Christ subjected to God and then God All in all (1 Cor.15:22-28).
You didn't read the study Eusebius, did you? (sigh) When you do, let's talk. Okay? Destroyed means destroyed.

I'd love for someone to actually read it.

But thanks anyway.
 
Old 09-29-2010, 09:01 AM
 
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Verna, in that article they said:

Quote:
Our careful investigation of the relevant Biblical data has shown that the wicked will be resurrected for the purpose of divine judgment. This will involve a permanent expulsion from Godís presence into a place where there will be weeping and grinding of teeth. After a period of conscious suffering as individually required by divine justice, the wicked will be consumed with no hope of restoration or recovery. The ultimate restoration of believers and the extinction of sinners from this world will prove that Christís redemptive mission has been an unqualified victory. Christís victory means that "the former things have passed away" (Rev 21:4), and only light, love, peace, and harmony will prevail throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity.
Again, Verna, I disagree with what they said. How can Christ's redemptive mission be an unqualified victory if the majority of humans are eternally destroyed when, according to Paul, the only unqualified victory Christ will have is when all, absolutely ALL mankind are subjected to Him and then God is ALL in absolutely all mankind (see 1 Cor.15:22-28)?

How is Christ losing the majority of mankind an "unqualified success" when His goal was "to come into the world to save sinners"?

Remember, Verna, in Romans 5:18,19 Paul uses the construct: Even as, Thus also when dealing with Adam and Christ.

EVEN AS Because of what Adam did all mankind were MADE sinners. THUS ALSO, because of what Christ did the same "all mankind" will be MADE righteous.

How is Christ's mission an unqualified victory if His act is not nearly as powerful as Adam's?

Also, "ceaseless ages of eternity" is a contradiction in terms. The Bible knows no such idea, so why say it? But bible does however say all the ages end. That is to be believed.
 
Old 09-29-2010, 09:15 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Verna,
I read the entire link. This is incorrect:

God will not resurrect the wicked to immortal life in order to inflict upon them a punishment of eternal pain. Rather the wicked will be resurrected mortal in order to receive their punishment which will result in their ultimate annihilation.

Hell will be eternal torment for the unbeliever, existing forever in hell. Heaven is the complete opposite of hell.
  • In hell people are "weeping"
    • in heaven God "wipes away every tear"
      • -
  • In hell people are "in darkness"
    • in heaven people are "in the light"
      • -
  • In hell people are "gnashing teeth" gives imagery of "closed mouth" (usually from the result of pain \ extreme anger\ bitterness )
    • in heaven people have a "open mouth" (singing praises, complete awe, wonder)
      • -
  • People are damned to hell based on disbelief relying on their self righteousness \ works or combo of faith and works .
    • People are saved to heaven based on belief relying not on on their self righteousness \ works or combo of faith and works
      • -
  • People will exist physically in hell forever (some being punished more severely than others based on their evilness)
    • People will exist physically in heaven forever (some will shine brighter than others based on God's mercy and graciousness)
      • -
  • People in hell are existing forever while losing everything even their name i.e. "being completely destroyed"
    • People will exist physically in heaven forever while everything is given to them (will be called by name) "being completely restored"

Last edited by twin.spin; 09-29-2010 at 09:26 AM..
 
Old 09-29-2010, 10:48 AM
 
Location: california
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Default You have some interesting view points.

How ever hell is not a new testament invention.
Old testament rferences mention hell bursting at the semes as it were. ever expanding.
the bible teaches a decending down into hell and the lake of fire, and the only lake of fire below us is at the core of the earth which would expand quite naturally with gravitational force .
I have considdered hell a bit and jesus spoke of a rich man that went to hell and wanted Abraham to send lazerus down to put water on his tongue, but Abraham said there is no way back from there there is a great gulf fixed.
now I understand some elements , take water , seperate the hdrogen from the oxygen and they move in seperate diections.
Man has a soul but the element that supports it is the body, sence his spirit is dead , when the body dies the soul has nothing to support it , it naturally decends to the center of the earth virtually no ressitance to gravity can be applied.
spirits , or living spirits carry a soul and give it the ability to resist gravity,i.e. move upon the serface of the earth or pass through walls in buildings. Ghosts and or demons do this all the time, they are spirits.
This is what makes the Spirit rebirth so important but it is something the Holy Spirit does we do not perform it John 3;3,4,5,6,
Alignment with Jesus and his lordship in our lives licenses the Holy Spirit to perform this in us . no act of man makes this occur. although our repentence forgivness and submission must come first.
These are acts of rightousness that we must perform honesty and continually through out our relationship with the Lord.
Jesus said wide is the gate that leads to distruction, and narrow is the way to eternal life. via only the tutelage of the Holy Spirit can one find the way. Jesus designed it just that way.
One thing I would caution about playing th figurative game , If you are choosing what is figurative and what is not , then all is left to figurative speculation heven would be figurative as well and we all are with out hope if fanticy is all this is about.
Thankfully I have a real relationship with the Father who teaches me and looks after me , and I love Him more than my life.
If Jesus said hell is eternal in both the gospels and revelations , it's eternal. not annialation.
Why would God do that ?
life is an amazing gift, you are made in the immage of God ,and if under his tutelage have some awsome potential.
On the other side of the coin is a creature practiced at rebellion, not obedience, deliberately independent of God. It cannot be turned loose there is no dicipline nor trust .
This is not a democracy, every thing answers to God , what He does with life is His to decide. What planns He has for the future is His ,
 
Old 09-29-2010, 11:06 AM
 
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arleigh and twin,
Which "hell" are you talking about? In the Old Testament "Sheol" (where they buried the dead) was translated "Hell" and "Grave". In the Greek version of the O.T. Sheol was translated as "Hades" so we know the Greeks back then knew Hades is where you bury the dead.

In the New Testament "Gehenna" which is to be a trash dump in the valley of Hinnom is sometimes translated "Hell". And sometimes Tartarus is translated Hell. and Hades is sometimes translated Hell.

So which hell are you talking about.

Twin.spin, sorry to burst your bubble but there is no suffering in Hades or Gehenna or even the lake of fire for humans. The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is for those who are kicked out of the kingdom of Israel when Christ sets up the glorious 1000 year reign.
 
Old 09-29-2010, 11:21 AM
 
941 posts, read 710,947 times
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Quote:
God will not resurrect the wicked to immortal life in order to inflict upon them a punishment of eternal pain. Rather the wicked will be resurrected mortal in order to receive their punishment which will result in their ultimate annihilation.

Why even bother resurrecting them? Just leave 'em dead.

Isn't death going to be done away with? How can they be eternally dead then?
 
Old 09-29-2010, 11:42 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,373,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero 7 View Post
Why even bother resurrecting them? Just leave 'em dead.

Isn't death going to be done away with? How can they be eternally dead then?
Good points Zero 7.

Also Verna, the article near the end said this:

Quote:
The traditional view of hell as conscious torment is in trouble today. The objections to such a view are so strong and the support so weak that more and more people are abandoning it, adopting instead the notion of universal salvation in order to avoid the sadistic horror of hell. To salvage the important Biblical doctrine of the final judgment and punishment of the wicked, it is important for Biblically-minded Christians to reexamine what the Bible really teaches about the fate of the lost.


I didn't believe in universal salvation to avoid the sadistic horror of hell. I did so due to the many verses which reveal UR.

But I do agree that "eternal conscious torment" is a sadistic horror.
I agree with the last sentence too. Let us really examine the final judgment and punishment of the wicked.
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