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Well, none of your posts indicate that you believe it is God who makes us believe, and i have never seen you take that stance in any debate on the issue of free will here on C-D.
Please excuse me If in fact you do not believe that it is your free will choice to believe before you are quickened by the spirit of God and given repentance and faith to acknowledge the truth of the Gospel. I apologize, as i could not recognizing that fact from your arguments.
Ironmaw1776,
First accept your apology
This will be a two part response: posts that indicate about our inability to chose God aka decision theology: (the 08-08-2010 is a basic representation of the difference of beliefs between Mike, ILNC, Alpha and I)
So why concentrate on our differences rather than lets say Mike, INLC, Alpha? Simple...because of whom it affects. For the most part the differences Mike and I have concern current believers. When the differences get resolved it doesn't the offer salvation where none is granted. The conclusion will be that unbelief\ver (that dies as such) will only face an angry God that will damn that person.
But not so with our differences between you, Phazelwood, Ilene, June. Our differences affects past \ present \ future unbelievers. If by chance an unbeliever accepts your testimony, that person will come to expect that despite unbelief, God will not damn them eternally.
I find that by offering salvation to people where God will not is not in the best interest of the unbeliever....and I know that we disagree.
When in Hebrews the Spirit pleads "Today stop rejecting" he does so because he knows that "tommorrow" may never come and be to late.
. 06-28-2010, 04:31 PM A "JUST JUNE" DUMB QUESTION: ET v. UR AND LIFE NOW: I don't subcribe to decision-theology...however... I don't subcribe to decision-theology...however God doesn't overlook rejecting Jesus.
.10-24-2009, 09:54 PM Chosen or Your Choice? Why is it so hard for Christians to accept they... Why is it so hard for Christians to accept they were chosen for Salvation through Jesus Christ? Not by any decision of their own.
. 02-04-2009, 08:38 AM Explain it one last time? June, I highlighted the one area in your post... I highlighted the one area in your post that is the key to your question.. the fact is that decision theology is false teaching. It places the burden of coming to faith and remaining there on...
And further proof that the word aionios does not mean eternal or everlasting are these verses ...
Rom 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past(Chronos aionios)
2Ti 1:9
who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began(pro chronos aionios)
Tts 1:2
in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began(pro chronos aionios)
Try translating the word aionios as eternal or everlasting in the phrase "pro chronos aionios".
Before time everlasting/eternal?
And to compound the error of the translation of aionios as eternal and everlasting, the variations of the words "Aionios" and "Chronos" in the above verses are the plural variations of those words as well. If aionios means eternal or everlasting, then how can it have a plural variation?
"Before times everlastings" or "before times eternals?"
It simply does not make sense ...
Peace ...
No one ever said that aionios isn't also used for age. The fact remains that it also designates eternal things.
The root word 'aion' does in fact refer to a space of time, an age. When the word 'aionios' is used it refers to either agelong or eternal, depending on context. In the NASB it is rendered as 'eternal' 66 times, 'eternity' once, and 'forever' once.
Regarding the phrase eis tous aionan ton aionon, which means to the ages of the ages or 'for the eons of eons', it is correctly brought over into the English as 'forever and ever'.
I've posted this before on other threads, and I post it again now.
Excerpt:
Speaking of the Greek construction in this verse,the great Biblical comentator R. C. H. Lenski observes: ''The strongest expression for our 'forever' is eis tous aionan ton aionon 'for the eons of eons', many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by 'forever and ever'. Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones.'' [52]
Gomes, Alan W. ''Evangelicals and the Annihilation of Hell, Part One,'' Christian Research Journal 13, no. 5, Spring 1991.
Now here are passages where aionion means eternal.
Matthew 25:46 'And will go away these into eternal punishment (aionion), but the righteous into eternal life (aionion).
John 3:15 That whoever believes may in Him have eternal (aionion) life .
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal (aionion) life
The life is eternal because it is God's life imputed to the believer. The believer has God's very own life.
Now, About 2 Corinthians 4:17 'For momentary light affliction is producing for us an eternal (aionion) weight of glory far beyond all comparison. 18] While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal (proskaira), but the things which are not seen are eternal (aionia).
Paul was contrasting the temporary sufferings and trials of this life with the eternal weight of glory which awaited him in the eternal state. He wasn't talking about the Millennium, but about Heaven. The Millennium is not Heaven. And the Millennium is NOT eternal. Paul was face to face with the Lord the moment after he died. The Millennial kingdom is still future. The things which are not seen are the glories of Heaven. And they are eternal. The things which are not seen are eternal and refer to those things which are beyond the grave.
Jesus Christ will rule forever.
Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. Jesus will rule forever, there will be no end to His kingdom.
Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos.
You will no doubt bring up 1 Corinthians 15:24 which says that Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to the Father. Yes He does. At the end of the Millennium when all enemies have been put under His feet, which includes the fallen angels and unbelieving humanity being cast into the lake of fire forever, Jesus will indeed deliver up the kingdom to the Father and the triune God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will rule forever.
The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Yes, aionios is used for things of an eternal nature.
Counter argument for the definition of the word aionios and its variations ...
"Proskaira" in contrast with "aionios" does not prove that "aionios" necessarily means eternal, to the contrary, "aionios" means literally "pertaining to the age/ages", as it is the adjective form of "aion" just as "eonian" is the adjective form of the English term "eon" or "age". "Aionios" applies to "aion" as "yearly" applies to "year" or as "Hourly" applies to "hour".
The verse above which mike quotes can and i believe should be translated as ...
"we not looking to the things seen, but to the things not seen; for the things seen are temporary, but the things not seen are age-during". (YLT)
2 Corinthians 4:18 is not comparing visible things that are "for a season" with things that are "eternal", it is comparing those things which we see now which are "temporary" or "for a season" with the things which are not yet seen but are to come and will be seen in the kingdom age. The things to come which are not yet seen are "eonian", or apply to the age to come when Christ will subject all things to himself.
That is to say, the things which Paul refers to that are not yet seen apply to the kingdom age which is to come, they "Pertain to the age" which is to come, and will replace those things that are now seen in this age.
This is further made evident in the way in which the Septuagint translates the Hebrew term Olam, which means literally "beyond the horizon" or "unseen", with the Greek term "aionios". A time that is so far in the future or in the past that it is unknowable(without divine revelation) at present.
To many, the thought of everlasting punishment for sinners, whether they profess Jesus or not, is unthinkable; they cannot imagine their loved ones being sent to this place called hell to suffer for eternity; therefore, they attempt to come up with other ways. For some, it's annihilation; for others, it's no hell at all; they claim that the Bible has been mistranslated. The truth is simply more than they can bear.
Instead of trying to conform the Word to your feelings, why not get down to business with God about your loved ones? If need be, go on a 40 day fast for God to shake them up, sending the fear of hell fire down on them. Some don't believe in fear to shake up a sinner, well God does. And, I listen to Him, not the theories of men.
1 Proverbs
[23] Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.
[24] Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
[25] But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
[26] I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
[27] When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
[28] Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
[29] For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
[30] They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
[31] Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
[32] For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
[33] But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.
Those who die in their sins have trampled the precious blood of Christ underfoot, and counted it worthless. Therefore, they will be turned over to the devil where he and all his angels will be tormented forever.
I wonder if God will use jet fuel like the terrorists did.
nahhh...sulfur,fire n brimstone..got ya..
To the contrary. Unbelief cannot be forgiven. Once a person has changed his mind about Christ (repentance) and goes from unbelief to belief then he has passed from spiritual death to eternal life. As long as a person remains in unbelief he cannot be forgiven. But once he believes, he is no longer in unbelief.
The sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was attributing to Satan, the miracles that Jesus was doing under the ministry of God the Holy Spirit. It was tantamount to rejecting Jesus as the Messiah. As long as the Pharisees' continued to do that and thereby reject Christ, they could not be forgiven. If at any time that they would repent (change their mind about Christ, they would be forgiven). In other words, anyone who dies having rejected Christ as Savior cannot be forgiven and is eternally lost. Since Jesus Christ is not physically on the earth and performing miracles under the power of the Holy Spirit, the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be commited today. But people can and do continue to reject Jesus as Savior. If they die in unbelief, they remain under eternal condemnation.
No actually unbelief is not forgiven, because it is not overlooked and excused, it is dealt with so that no one remains in unbelief.
The problem is that you cannot reconcile your assertion. If at one point you were an unbeliever, then you cannot be forgiven of it and are not forgiven of it now as you write to me.
The reason the typical explanation doesn't work is that blasphemy of the holy spirit is singled out in comparison to other sins, however, there comes the problem, how is any other sin different. Are you indeed forgiven of other sins if you never repent of them? Can one willfully remain in any sin and be forgiven of it?
Last edited by Phazelwood; 10-01-2010 at 07:09 AM..
the sin of blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be commited today.
Like I said, people come up with clever loopholes when they reach a point where they know they have comitted blasphemy and are trapped in their religious understanding.
You have comitted blasphemy at some point Mike, all believers have, it is the misunderstanding and garbage religious doctrines that will not see how glorious it is that it is not forgiven.
I have noticed that the balance of this is all based on human logical conclusions and deductions, rather than letting scripture speak for itself. More times than not human logic isn't how God teaches.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
So then you admit that the only reason why anyone believes in Christ is because God elected them and quickened them spiritually and gave them repentance to acknowledge the truth of the Gospel and faith to believe on Christ?
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
Then you must also admit that the only reason why people do not believe in the gospel of Christ is because they cannot believe in the gospel because God has not yet given them repentance or faith.
Proverbs 3:5 .... lean not on your own understanding;
You're in the own understanding mode.
Scripture teaches that humanity is held accountable for unbelief.
Scripture teaches that people actively resist faith.
Scripture teaches that after resistance, sometimes God can and does with draw the ability for a person to believe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
And if you admit that to be true then you cannot say that eternal torment and or everlasting hell is in any way shape or form true justice.
Proverbs 3:5 .... lean not on your own understanding;
you have gone from "own understanding" to "accusatory mode"
Isaiah 45:9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776
I suppose then that you must be Calvinist, and that since you teach eternal torment that you must believe God specifically created most people for the very purpose of torturing them forever, and that he does not truly desire all people to be saved because if he did he would give all people repentance and faith to believe on Christ.
Please explain how I am wrong if you believe that any thing which I wrote above is wrong. Peace ...
Your wrong, am not Calvinist. .... lean not on your own understanding; Proverbs 3:5
Scripture doesn't teach the predestination to hell, only predestination to heaven ......... lean not on your own understanding; Proverbs 3:5
Scripture teaches God desires all, not that all desire God. ......... lean not on your own understanding; Proverbs 3:5
I have noticed that the balance of this is all based on human logical conclusions and deductions, rather than letting scripture speak for itself. More times than not human logic isn't how God teaches.
So you realized that your prior analogy was trying to get me to see God through human logic.
This will be a two part response: posts that indicate about our inability to chose God aka decision theology: (the 08-08-2010 is a basic representation of the difference of beliefs between Mike, ILNC, Alpha and I)
So why concentrate on our differences rather than lets say Mike, INLC, Alpha? Simple...because of whom it affects. For the most part the differences Mike and I have concern current believers. When the differences get resolved it doesn't the offer salvation where none is granted. The conclusion will be that unbelief\ver (that dies as such) will only face an angry God that will damn that person.
But not so with our differences between you, Phazelwood, Ilene, June. Our differences affects past \ present \ future unbelievers. If by chance an unbeliever accepts your testimony, that person will come to expect that despite unbelief, God will not damn them eternally.
I find that by offering salvation to people where God will not is not in the best interest of the unbeliever....and I know that we disagree.
When in Hebrews the Spirit pleads "Today stop rejecting" he does so because he knows that "tommorrow" may never come and be to late.
. 06-28-2010, 04:31 PM A "JUST JUNE" DUMB QUESTION: ET v. UR AND LIFE NOW: I don't subcribe to decision-theology...however... I don't subcribe to decision-theology...however God doesn't overlook rejecting Jesus.
.10-24-2009, 09:54 PM Chosen or Your Choice? Why is it so hard for Christians to accept they... Why is it so hard for Christians to accept they were chosen for Salvation through Jesus Christ? Not by any decision of their own.
. 02-04-2009, 08:38 AM Explain it one last time? June, I highlighted the one area in your post... I highlighted the one area in your post that is the key to your question.. the fact is that decision theology is false teaching. It places the burden of coming to faith and remaining there on...
I have noticed that the balance of this is all based on human logical conclusions and deductions, rather than letting scripture speak for itself. More times than not human logic isn't how God teaches.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;
Ephesians 1:4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Proverbs 3:5 .... lean not on your own understanding;
You're in the own understanding mode.
Scripture teaches that humanity is held accountable for unbelief.
Scripture teaches that people actively resist faith.
Scripture teaches that after resistance, sometimes God can and does with draw the ability for a person to believe.
Proverbs 3:5 .... lean not on your own understanding;
you have gone from "own understanding" to "accusatory mode"
Isaiah 45:9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker,....
Your wrong, am not Calvinist. .... lean not on your own understanding; Proverbs 3:5
Scripture doesn't teach the predestination to hell, only predestination to heaven ......... lean not on your own understanding; Proverbs 3:5
Scripture teaches God desires all, not that all desire God. ......... lean not on your own understanding; Proverbs 3:5
I have deduced from your two posts above that you do not know what you actually believe. You contradict yourself, and it appears to me that you are obviously tossed to and fro by the raging seas of false religion and by the violent storms of the traditions of men.
You basically are saying out of one side of your mouth that God elects and Chooses us and that it is his work which causes us to repent and believe on Christ so that no one can boast, while out of the other side of your mouth you say it is the individual persons responsibility to make a free will choice to repent and believe, so that the blame of unbelief falls squarely on the individual person.
Sorry Twin, you cant have your cake and eat it too ...
Peace ...
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