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Old 09-30-2010, 11:47 PM
 
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Because of 1 Corinthians 15:24, there are those who believe that Jesus Christ will not reign forever.

1 Corinthians 15:24 'Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25] For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

But here are what the following passages say:

Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.



Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity.

Yes, Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to the Father at the end of the Millennium when all enemies have been put under His feet, which includes the fallen angels and unbelieving humanity being cast into the lake of fire forever. The last enemy to be defeated will be physical death. All believers and all unbelievers will have been resurrected, and there will be no more physical death. Unbelievers of course will be thrown into the lake of fire which is the Second death where they will live forever in eternal shame, ruin, uselessness and torment. Then Jesus will indeed deliver up the kingdom to the Father, and it will be the triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who will rule forever.

The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).

Revelation 22:3 'And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servents shall serve Him:

So Jesus will turn over the Millennial kingdom to God, and time will give way to eternity future, and the triune God will rule over all.
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Old 10-01-2010, 03:02 AM
 
488 posts, read 868,938 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Because of 1 Corinthians 15:24, there are those who believe that Jesus Christ will not reign forever.

1 Corinthians 15:24 'Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25] For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

But here are what the following passages say:

Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.



Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity.

Yes, Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to the Father at the end of the Millennium when all enemies have been put under His feet, which includes the fallen angels and unbelieving humanity being cast into the lake of fire forever. The last enemy to be defeated will be physical death. All believers and all unbelievers will have been resurrected, and there will be no more physical death. Unbelievers of course will be thrown into the lake of fire which is the Second death where they will live forever in eternal shame, ruin, uselessness and torment. Then Jesus will indeed deliver up the kingdom to the Father, and it will be the triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who will rule forever.

The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).

Revelation 22:3 'And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servents shall serve Him:

So Jesus will turn over the Millennial kingdom to God, and time will give way to eternity future, and the triune God will rule over all.
yes! This is an undeniable fact that Jesus Christ will reign forever!!! very soon we'll see how things will actually play out!
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Old 10-02-2010, 03:36 PM
 
910 posts, read 1,043,228 times
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Originally Posted by doesntspringtomind View Post
yes! This is an undeniable fact that Jesus Christ will reign forever!!! very soon we'll see how things will actually play out!
What you described has already happened on the planet. The creator of heaven and earth is already physically living with man with his Christ. He has a new name, as he has come for a new assignment. Judgement is ongoing, all that remains is their revelation to the whole world. Do not bother yourself, just love your neighbour and love God!!
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Old 10-02-2010, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Because of 1 Corinthians 15:24, there are those who believe that Jesus Christ will not reign forever.

1 Corinthians 15:24 'Then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25] For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

But here are what the following passages say:

Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.



Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity.

Yes, Jesus will deliver up the kingdom to the Father at the end of the Millennium when all enemies have been put under His feet, which includes the fallen angels and unbelieving humanity being cast into the lake of fire forever. The last enemy to be defeated will be physical death. All believers and all unbelievers will have been resurrected, and there will be no more physical death. Unbelievers of course will be thrown into the lake of fire which is the Second death where they will live forever in eternal shame, ruin, uselessness and torment. Then Jesus will indeed deliver up the kingdom to the Father, and it will be the triune God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit who will rule forever.

The eternal throne is that of God and of the Lamb. Revelation 22:1 'And He showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God (the Father) and of the Lamb (Jesus Christ).

Revelation 22:3 'And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servents shall serve Him:

So Jesus will turn over the Millennial kingdom to God, and time will give way to eternity future, and the triune God will rule over all.
Someone must have tricked you. Aionios is not found in Hebrews 1:8.
(edit to add that you didn't say it was but you seem suggest a period longer than what AGE represents).
Heb 1:8 προς G4314 PREP δε G1161 CONJ τον G3588 T-ASM υιον G5207 N-ASM ο G3588 T-NSM θρονος G2362 N-NSM σου G4771 P-2GS ο G3588 T-NSM θεος G2316 N-NSM εις G1519 PREP τον G3588 T-ASM αιωνα G165 N-ASM του G3588 T-GSM αιωνος G165 N-GSM ραβδος G4464 N-NSF ευθυτητος G2118 N-GSF η G3588 T-NSF ραβδος G4464 N-NSF της G3588 T-GSF βασιλειας G932 N-GSF σου G4771 P-2GS

G165 is used (age) and it is singular in both cases and NOT plural.

Last edited by trettep; 10-02-2010 at 07:16 PM.. Reason: Edit to ensure no implication.
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Old 10-02-2010, 10:04 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Someone must have tricked you. Aionios is not found in Hebrews 1:8.
(edit to add that you didn't say it was but you seem suggest a period longer than what AGE represents).
Heb 1:8 προς G4314 PREP δε G1161 CONJ τον G3588 T-ASM υιον G5207 N-ASM ο G3588 T-NSM θρονος G2362 N-NSM σου G4771 P-2GS ο G3588 T-NSM θεος G2316 N-NSM εις G1519 PREP τον G3588 T-ASM αιωνα G165 N-ASM του G3588 T-GSM αιωνος G165 N-GSM ραβδος G4464 N-NSF ευθυτητος G2118 N-GSF η G3588 T-NSF ραβδος G4464 N-NSF της G3588 T-GSF βασιλειας G932 N-GSF σου G4771 P-2GS

G165 is used (age) and it is singular in both cases and NOT plural.
As I clearly presented, the phrase in Hebrews 1:8 is 'eis ton aiona tou aionos'.

Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity.

The reign of Jesus Christ is forever. Without end.

Here are three different sources.

Hebrews 1:8 Greek Texts and Analysis

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...NTpdf/heb1.pdf

The New Greek English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition.

Hebrews 1:8 And to the Son, The throne of You O God is to the age (aiona ) of the age (aionos) .



Regardless of whether the phrase used is 'to the age of the age,' or 'to the ages of the ages', or 'to the age of the ages, it all refers to that which is eternal. That which is without end.

So I said 'to the ages of the ages' instead of 'to the age of the age'. I don't pretend to be an expert in the Greek. The point is that Jesus' throne and His reign will be forever and ever through out all eternity future. He will reign along with the Father.

And as stated in Luke 1:33

Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.

Jesus' reign is forever and will have no end = eternal - forever - focusing on eternity future.

Last edited by Mike555; 10-02-2010 at 11:04 PM..
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Old 10-03-2010, 09:21 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,628,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
As I clearly presented, the phrase in Hebrews 1:8 is 'eis ton aiona tou aionos'.

Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the ages of the ages. The most emphatic way in the Greek of expressing the concept of eternity.

The reign of Jesus Christ is forever. Without end.

Here are three different sources.

Hebrews 1:8 Greek Texts and Analysis

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...NTpdf/heb1.pdf

The New Greek English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition.

Hebrews 1:8 And to the Son, The throne of You O God is to the age (aiona ) of the age (aionos) .



Regardless of whether the phrase used is 'to the age of the age,' or 'to the ages of the ages', or 'to the age of the ages, it all refers to that which is eternal. That which is without end.

So I said 'to the ages of the ages' instead of 'to the age of the age'. I don't pretend to be an expert in the Greek. The point is that Jesus' throne and His reign will be forever and ever through out all eternity future. He will reign along with the Father.

And as stated in Luke 1:33

Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.

Jesus' reign is forever and will have no end = eternal - forever - focusing on eternity future.
That is incorrect. Your saying what is not there. Even your link you provided shows the "age" is listed as SINGULAR and not plural. "Eternal" means without Beginning and without End. God is an example of ETERNAL. But the same book and chapter you quoted from shows that ALL ages are created:

Heb 1:2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

Now if all Ages were created then they surely can't be "ETERNAL".
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Old 10-03-2010, 12:09 PM
 
20,299 posts, read 15,642,764 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
That is incorrect. Your saying what is not there. Even your link you provided shows the "age" is listed as SINGULAR and not plural. "Eternal" means without Beginning and without End. God is an example of ETERNAL. But the same book and chapter you quoted from shows that ALL ages are created:

Heb 1:2 in these last days did speak to us in a Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He did make the ages;

Now if all Ages were created then they surely can't be "ETERNAL".
I assume that you are denying that Jesus will reign forever. Jesus will begin His reign when He returns to the earth at the end of the tribulation. From that point on, He will reign forever. At the end of the Millenium He will turn over the kingdom to the Father and the reign will be that of the Father and the Son (Revelation 22:1,3).

I suggest that you go back to the original post and compare one with another the different passages which I listed. No one who is capable of thinking straight can truthfully deny that Jesus will reign forever.

Regarding the word aionios, here is what Strong's says: agelong, eternal, forever, everlasting.

From aion; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


Words often have more than one meaning. Aionios refers both to age and to eternal things, depending on the context.

A.T. Robertson, an expert in the Greek language and who authored 'A Grammar of Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research' in 1914 is quoted as saying the following...

Excerpt:
According to A.T. Robertson: “The word aionios...means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word”(1930, 1:202, emp. added).

Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I]


With regard to the phrase 'eis tous aionas ton aionon', which is a bit different from the phrase 'eis ton aiona tou aionos,' used in Hebrews 1:8, Dr. Alan Gomes of the Talbot School of Theology wrote the following...

Excerpt:
In the most emphatic language possible, we are told that the torment is unending. When we considered Matthew 25:46 above, we noted that aionos can, in some contexts, qualify nouns of limited duration. (Though, as we also observed, the context of Matthew 25 demands that we take aionios in its unlimited signification there.) But here, we find the emphatic forms eis aionas aionon and eis tous aionas ton aionon ("unto the ages of the ages"). This construction is only used to describe unending duration. As Sasse points out, the "twofold use of the term [aionios]" is designed "to emphasize the concept of eternity."[51] The fact that the forms used are plural in number further reinforces the idea of never-ending duration. Speaking of the Greek construction in this verse, the great biblical commentator R. C. H. Lenski observes: "The strongest expression for our `forever' is eis tous aionan ton aionon, `for the eons of eons'; many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by `forever and ever.' Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones."[52]

CRI Journal - CRJ0085A

Dr. Alan Gomes; Associate Professor and Chair, Dept of Theology, Talbot School of Theology.


Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the age of the age. Eis ton aiona tou aionos is translated as 'forever and ever' in both the NASB and the KJB and most other translations, and in a few translations as 'to the age of the age'. Why? Because His kingdom is without end as declared in Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.
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Old 10-03-2010, 01:28 PM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 5,108,802 times
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Originally Posted by Marlbron View Post
What you described has already happened on the planet. The creator of heaven and earth is already physically living with man with his Christ. He has a new name, as he has come for a new assignment. Judgement is ongoing, all that remains is their revelation to the whole world. Do not bother yourself, just love your neighbour and love God!!


Yes, the Christ (Anointing) within man is what will break the yoke of bondage to fleshly oppression. Praise God for His Love and Righteousness!

Blessings,
brian
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Old 10-03-2010, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Somewhere
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I assume that you are denying that Jesus will reign forever. Jesus will begin His reign when He returns to the earth at the end of the tribulation. From that point on, He will reign forever. At the end of the Millenium He will turn over the kingdom to the Father and the reign will be that of the Father and the Son (Revelation 22:1,3).

I suggest that you go back to the original post and compare one with another the different passages which I listed. No one who is capable of thinking straight can truthfully deny that Jesus will reign forever.

Regarding the word aionios, here is what Strong's says: agelong, eternal, forever, everlasting.

From aion; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well) -- eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).


Words often have more than one meaning. Aionios refers both to age and to eternal things, depending on the context.

A.T. Robertson, an expert in the Greek language and who authored 'A Grammar of Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research' in 1914 is quoted as saying the following...

Excerpt:
According to A.T. Robertson: “The word aionios...means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word”(1930, 1:202, emp. added).

Apologetics Press - The Eternality of Hell [Part I]


With regard to the phrase 'eis tous aionas ton aionon', which is a bit different from the phrase 'eis ton aiona tou aionos,' used in Hebrews 1:8, Dr. Alan Gomes of the Talbot School of Theology wrote the following...

Excerpt:
In the most emphatic language possible, we are told that the torment is unending. When we considered Matthew 25:46 above, we noted that aionos can, in some contexts, qualify nouns of limited duration. (Though, as we also observed, the context of Matthew 25 demands that we take aionios in its unlimited signification there.) But here, we find the emphatic forms eis aionas aionon and eis tous aionas ton aionon ("unto the ages of the ages"). This construction is only used to describe unending duration. As Sasse points out, the "twofold use of the term [aionios]" is designed "to emphasize the concept of eternity."[51] The fact that the forms used are plural in number further reinforces the idea of never-ending duration. Speaking of the Greek construction in this verse, the great biblical commentator R. C. H. Lenski observes: "The strongest expression for our `forever' is eis tous aionan ton aionon, `for the eons of eons'; many aeons, each of vast duration, are multiplied by many more, which we imitate by `forever and ever.' Human language is able to use only temporal terms to express what is altogether beyond time and timeless. The Greek takes its greatest term for time, the eon, pluralizes this, and then multiplies it by its own plural, even using articles which make these eons the definite ones."[52]

CRI Journal - CRJ0085A

Dr. Alan Gomes; Associate Professor and Chair, Dept of Theology, Talbot School of Theology.


Hebrews 1:8 ''But of the Son He says, ''Thy throne O God, is forever and ever - eis ton aiona tou aionos - to the age of the age. Eis ton aiona tou aionos is translated as 'forever and ever' in both the NASB and the KJB and most other translations, and in a few translations as 'to the age of the age'. Why? Because His kingdom is without end as declared in Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.
Mike Strongs is wrong in saying that Aionios is Eternal. It is never of the meaning of ETERNAL. An easy way to prove this is this verse:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In that verse the word for punishment is Kolasis which is the noun result of the verb action Kolazo which means to prune or curtail. Therefore the punishment there must be a curtailment. If Aionios meant "Eternal" it would mean that the punishment HAS ALWAYS BEEN and ALWAYS WILL BE. Now furthermore since the punishment is a curtailment then if it meant FOREVER then the curtailment would never happen because we would forever be in a state of curtailING.

Aionios just describes something that shall CONTINUE beyond the current age boundary.
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Old 10-03-2010, 03:11 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike Strongs is wrong in saying that Aionios is Eternal. It is never of the meaning of ETERNAL. An easy way to prove this is this verse:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

In that verse the word for punishment is Kolasis which is the noun result of the verb action Kolazo which means to prune or curtail. Therefore the punishment there must be a curtailment. If Aionios meant "Eternal" it would mean that the punishment HAS ALWAYS BEEN and ALWAYS WILL BE. Now furthermore since the punishment is a curtailment then if it meant FOREVER then the curtailment would never happen because we would forever be in a state of curtailING.

Aionios just describes something that shall CONTINUE beyond the current age boundary.
I have provided in post #7 four different sources from experts in the Greek lanquage that aionios is used to specify eternal things.

Aionios is used both in reference to an age, and in reference to eternal things. It depends on the context.

AGAIN. And to keep this thread on topic; which is that Jesus Christ will reign forever, Luke 1:33 makes that quite clear by coming at it from two different angles.

Luke 1:33 'And He will reign over the house of Jacob forever (aionas); and His Kingdom will have no end. This passage approaches the fact that Jesus will reign forever from two different perspectives. First, it states that Jesus will reign forever, and then it strengthens that statement by declaring that there will be no end to His reign. It can't be made any more plain than that.

NO END means forever.

Answer this question straight out. Are you denying that Jesus Christ will reign forever? Yes or no!!!

I'll ask it like this. Are you denying that once Jesus Christ begins His reign that it will continue without end? Yes or no!!!

Last edited by Mike555; 10-03-2010 at 04:04 PM..
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