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and being catholic is NOT being negative 99% of the time about one's CHOSEN religion or trying to change the foundation of that religion to suit your own needs
Who are you to decide who is and isn't a good Catholic.
You might not understand this but being Catholic is more than just blindly following rules made up by the hierarchy, the Gospels trumps Church law.
Over and over Jesus confronted those Jews that thought they were good Jews just because they followed the law.
Opposition to abortion is in the Didache and the Councils before the last Council of Nicaea in 787. Also the canon of Gospels and the New Testament was decided by the Church.
I was actually, for once, agreeing with much of what you said here. However Catholicism is not Protestantism, no matter how much you might wish it were. It is not "Sola Scriptura" and the definitions of the Councils, Popes, etc do matter.
All that said there is a kernel of wisdom/truth in what you say. A Catholic or Christian is not really to condemn a person as "a bad Catholic." You are supposed to look at your own sins and try to be better, not setting oneself up as better than some politician. Although I think we can say that Pelosi, and a few others, are misrepresenting Catholicism and doing things that go against the faith. What that means on their status is possibly a matter for their priest or confessor, but I do understand the temptation more than you would.
The part about "the Kennedys" is, perhaps unintentionally, more problematic I think. It's impugning an entire family for the actions of more prominent members. The late Eunice Kennedy Shriver supported Feminists for Life, Democrats for Life, and the Pro-Life Susan B. Anthony List. From what I can tell she was truly Pro-Life and essentially orthodox in her faith. Making a blanket statement about "The Kennedys" is at the very least unfair because of women like her. Plus being from a small town it reminds me a bit of those "That family is scum" statements that strike me as unfair and un-Christian.
and being catholic is NOT being negative 99% of the time about one's CHOSEN religion or trying to change the foundation of that religion to suit your own needs
I am not negative about my faith, I think a lot of people here are the negative ones, they are always telling others to leave, deciding who is and isn't a good catholic etc. etc., who died and left you and and your friends at this forum in charge of the Church.
I am not trying to change the foundation of the faith, if anything I seek to see the Church return to its traditions.
You should really read Church history, you would be really surprised.
It did not function as the Church does today.
At the heart of Catholic doctrine it is actually the same as Protestant and Orthodox. The sacraments actually mean nothing if you don't truly believe that Christ is your Lord and Savior.
Each denomination, whether Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox has their "requirements" but scripture is clear that rituals means absolutely nothing. It is the heart that matters.
If this girl wants to be a follower of Christ all she needs to do in God's eyes according to scripture is to "call on the name of the Lord" and she is saved through the atoning work of Christ and can begin a relationship with Jesus.
Denomination is not the the issue, her heart is, just as we all who proclaim Jesus as Lord and Savior, whether Catholic, Protestant, or Orthodox are saved ONLY through our faith in Christ and what He did for us.
If this is about being part of a denomination for the sake of being part of it or for YOU then it means nothing since it is not for herself but to please someone or something. It must be that she wants to follow Jesus. The heart of the sacraments is a faith in Christ. She can have faith simply by praying to Christ:
Example Prayer:
Lord Jesus, I need you. Thank you for dying on the cross for my sins. I open the door of my heart and ask for you to come in. Take control of the throne of my life and make me the kind of person, you want me to be. I pray this in the name of Jesus. Amen!
If anyone means the words of this prayer sincerely then according to scripture they are saved. The next step is to find a Church that preaches Christ so they can learn how to live out that relationship with Christ.
Baptism does not save us. Baptism which is either the sprinkling or immersion in water is merely an outward sign of an inward truth no matter what denomination you are part of. If you do not believe in Christ and what He did then baptism means nothing. It is about the heart. Being a Christian is being a follower of Christ and in relationship with Him. All Catholics, Protestants and Orthodox believers are Christians because of their faith, not their denomination.
There is a saying, just because you hang out in a garage, does not make you a car. I myself come from a protestant background but I am blessed to call other Catholics brothers and sisters in Christ not because we are the same denomination but because of our shared faith in Christ crucified.
What makes a Christian regardless of denomination is faith in Christ. My Church does have the sacraments but if there is no faith in our heart it means absolutely nothing. You must ask your friend why she wants to become Catholic. If she truly wants a relationship with God then the prayer I suggested is all she needs to begin that relationship with Christ. When all is said and done and we pass away it is not the rituals that save us but our faith in Christ that does.
The best example of my words are the soldier in the battlefield who is mortally wounded and prays to Christ before their death in faith. There was no time to be baptised or go through any rituals(although good to learn) before their death. The faith of their heart crying before their Savior is all they had time to do. Is not the words they cried minutes or even seconds before their death to Christ thanking Him for what He did faith and the end result of baptism and/or the sacraments? Are they not saved because of their faith in Christ? Of course! The scripture was clear, all those who call on the name of the Lord(Jesus) is faith. How can you call on the name of the Lord without BELIEVING He is Lord of their life? If you don't mean it, then the sacraments and/or rituals such as baptism mean nothing.
Faith is merely believing what Christ did for all of us who are sinners and that is accomplished by the belief of our heart. This can be done by the simple prayer I suggested.
A Christian is simply a follower of Christ whether Catholic, Protestant or Orthodox. It is our shared faith that we have the right to be called children of God. This is open to all. All we have to do is ask.
Opposition to abortion is in the Didache and the Councils before the last Council of Nicaea in 787. Also the canon of Gospels and the New Testament was decided by the Church.
I was actually, for once, agreeing with much of what you said here. However Catholicism is not Protestantism, no matter how much you might wish it were. It is not "Sola Scriptura" and the definitions of the Councils, Popes, etc do matter.
All that said there is a kernel of wisdom/truth in what you say. A Catholic or Christian is not really to condemn a person as "a bad Catholic." You are supposed to look at your own sins and try to be better, not setting oneself up as better than some politician. Although I think we can say that Pelosi, and a few others, are misrepresenting Catholicism and doing things that go against the faith. What that means on their status is possibly a matter for their priest or confessor, but I do understand the temptation more than you would.
The part about "the Kennedys" is, perhaps unintentionally, more problematic I think. It's impugning an entire family for the actions of more prominent members. The late Eunice Kennedy Shriver supported Feminists for Life, Democrats for Life, and the Pro-Life Susan B. Anthony List. From what I can tell she was truly Pro-Life and essentially orthodox in her faith. Making a blanket statement about "The Kennedys" is at the very least unfair because of women like her. Plus being from a small town it reminds me a bit of those "That family is scum" statements that strike me as unfair and un-Christian.
Oh please, I don't know anyone who is pro-abortion; pro-choice is not pro abortion.
As far as Church teaching goes, the Church has been all over the map with this over its history, even allowing early term abortions because it was thought that the soul did not enter the fetus for several months, even later in the case of a female fetus which Church fathers said was an ill formed male.
So typical of Catholics like you and the rest who badmouth polititions that are liberal Catholic Democrats who do a hell a lot more for the concerns of helping the poor while at the same time you people say nothing about warmongerling conservative Catholic Republicans that dump on the poor, vote against healthcare etc.
Give me a break.
Catholicism is not Protestantism, no matter how much you might wish it were.
And when did I make such a statement????????????????????????
Or should we add mind reader to your resume? not a very good one at that.
Don't go making false statements about what I think or believe, you lower your credibility.
An emphasis on the Bible when coupled with disdain for the defining authority of the Church is in essence Protestant. It seemed like that might be what you were doing.
For the most part I was being fairly reasonable and restrained there. I even tried to think of ways I could share criticism with who you criticized while making it clear I very much disagree with you. If you want just an attack on you I certainly can oblige. Not that I think it would do any good. What you think Catholicism is matters to you, even if it bears no relationship to Catholicism for anyone else in history. It's not my job to convert you from Tedism.
I get a bit arrogant at times, but things like this show you do as well.
I think I likely know Church history as well as you, probably better judging from my experience with you so far. I think you almost want to believe everything from 1054 to Pius XII doesn't really count, but even if I were to agree with that I still don't think it justifies much of what you indicate.
Like I believe you were okay with women priests. There is nothing clearly in Church history to support that. Yes there are revisionists websites or feminist nuns who indicate there were women priests before the Council of Nicaea, but that's theoretical not real. Although I guess I'd concede my knowledge of theoretical or speculative Church history is likely weaker than yours.
In addition the early Councils we know say things that I think you disdain. (I might even find a few of these no longer necessary)
First Council of Nicaea
"It is by all means proper that a bishop should be appointed by all the bishops in the province; but should this be difficult, either on account of urgent necessity or because of distance, three at least should meet together, and the suffrages of the absent [bishops] also being given and communicated in writing, then the ordination should take place. But in every province the ratification of what is done should be left to the Metropolitan." (This may mean the priests select the bishop, but doesn't seem to fit with your idea the laity select everything)
Council of Chalcedon
Canon 9
If any Clergyman have a matter against another clergyman, he shall not forsake his bishop and run to secular courts (my emphasis as some might relate it to scandals); but let him first lay open the matter before his own Bishop, or let the matter be submitted to any person whom each of the parties may, with the Bishop's consent, select. And if any one shall contravene these decrees, let him be subjected to canonical penalties. "
Canon 16
A woman shall not receive the laying on of hands as a deaconess under forty years of age, and then only after searching examination. And if, after she has had hands laid on her and has continued for a time to minister, she shall despise the grace of God and give herself in marriage, she shall be anathematized and the man united to her. (Might seem to allow women ministers, but they have to be celibate and over 40. Also it's debated what "deaconess" entailed)
Second Council of Nicaea
Canon 3
"For he who is raised to the episcopate must be chosen by bishops."
Canon 8
That Hebrews ought not to be received unless they have been converted in sincerity of heart.
Canon 9
"All the childish devices and mad ravings which have been falsely written against the venerable images, must be delivered up to the Episcopium of Constantinople, that they may be locked away with other heretical books. And if anyone is found hiding such books, if he be a bishop or presbyter or deacon, let him be deposed; but if he be a monk or layman, let him be anathema."
Canon 18
Ancient Epitome: It is not fitting that women should be kept in episcopal houses or in monasteries. If anyone shall dare to do so, he shall be reproved; but if he persists, he shall be deposed. No woman is allowed to serve or even to appear where a bishop or a superior of a monastery is present, but let her keep herself apart until he be gone.
Works from Pre-Nicene Christianity
Ignatius of Antioch - Epistle to the Smyrnaeans: Chapter 8 is called "Let nothing be done without the bishop" and chapter 9 Honor the bishop.
Irenaeus of Lyons spoke of the Supremacy of the Pope as did Cyprian.
Not that I even think totally scrubbing Church history from 1054 to 1954 even makes much sense, but if we were to do that we'd likely have something more like Eastern Orthodoxy. And I see no indications that a monastic oriented faith that has celibate bishops, no real movement toward women priests, and a general disdain for ecumenism is anything like what you want.
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