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Mike, I can't get to your post right now, which is full of nonsense, but just let me say: you are so upside down. Tradition has got you so blinded. The JEWS were judged in GEHENNA (hell) in 70 A.D., where there was a great amount of weeping and gnashing (gritting) of teeth!! They have been wandering in outer (spiritual) darkness!! The lake of fire has nothing whatsoever to do with this. The angels are tormented in the PRESENCE of the lamb! Don't you know you shall judge angels??
No, the Jews were not judged in the garbage dump outside of the south side of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. What happened in 70 A.D was the destruction of the temple and the city and the dispersion of the Jews.
Gehenna made a perfect illustration of the reality of the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who can kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna).
Man can kill the body in the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, but man cannot kill the soul in the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem or anywhere else for that matter. But God can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire (gehenna).
At death the soul of the unbeliever goes into torments in Hades (Luke 16:19-31). At the end of the Millennium, his soul is taken out of Hades and placed into his resurrected body and then sent both body and soul, I said both body and soul, into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).
In Matthew 10:28 God is said to be able to destroy both body and soul, I said both body and soul, in Gehenna. Gehenna - the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem was a picture of the lake of fire. The garbage dump outside of Jerusalem which was called Gehenna symbolized the actual lake of fire in which all unbelievers and fallen angels will reside forever.
Both body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28).
Both body and soul are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).
Destruction of the soul and body in the lake of fire - Gehenna- does not mean cessation of existence, it means eternal ruination and uselessness in conscous torment.
Now look at Luke 12:4-5 which parallels Matthew 10:28.
Luke 12:4 ''And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do 5] ''But I will warn you whom to fear; fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell (gehenna); yes, I tell you fear Him!
The soul which as Matthew 10:28 clearly states is separate from the body, is not able to be destroyed in the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. But it is subject to destruction (again not a reference to cessation of existence) in the lake of fire which is symbolized by the use of the word Gehenna which was in the valley of Hinnon.
No, the Jews were not judged in the garbage dump outside of the south side of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. What happened in 70 A.D was the destruction of the temple and the city and the dispersion of the Jews.
Gehenna made a perfect illustration of the reality of the lake of fire.
Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who can kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (gehenna).
Man can kill the body in the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem, but man cannot kill the soul in the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem or anywhere else for that matter. But God can destroy both body and soul in the lake of fire (gehenna).
At death the soul of the unbeliever goes into torments in Hades (Luke 16:19-31). At the end of the Millennium, his soul is taken out of Hades and placed into his resurrected body and then sent both body and soul, I said both body and soul, into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).
In Matthew 10:28 God is said to be able to destroy both body and soul, I said both body and soul, in Gehenna. Gehenna - the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem was a picture of the lake of fire. The garbage dump outside of Jerusalem which was called Gehenna symbolized the actual lake of fire in which all unbelievers and fallen angels will reside forever.
Both body and soul are destroyed in Gehenna (Matthew 10:28).
Both body and soul are cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15).
Destruction of the soul and body in the lake of fire - Gehenna- does not mean cessation of existence, it means eternal ruination and uselessness in conscous torment.
Now look at Luke 12:4-5 which parallels Matthew 10:28.
Luke 12:4 ''And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do 5] ''But I will warn you whom to fear; fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell (gehenna); yes, I tell you fear Him!
The soul which as Matthew 10:28 clearly states is separate from the body, is not able to be destroyed in the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem. But it is subject to destruction (again not a reference to cessation of existence) in the lake of fire which is symbolized by the use of the word Gehenna which was in the valley of Hinnon.
You really have to do some more studying, Mike. I'm so glad Jesus showed up! He wanted to take away the pagan people's fear of dying and their pagan ideas of the underworld. Good News!!
Isaiah 29:13. And the Lord said: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men.
Hebrews 2:15. And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
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This debate could go on and on. No one is going to change the other's mind overnight. I just hope people like Mike are truly comfortable with the implications of what they believe in, if they are going to live with them for eternity. A select few believers rejoicing in heaven while they watch billions of people - dead, now living, and to be born - in absolute physical and mental agony, while they praise God for this torture in the name of justice. According to you Jesus and the saints - including you, presumably, will behold this spectacle forever. Does this thought fill you with joy? Watching an unsaved relative begging for mercy? You'll probably say, like Luther or Augustine, that you'll feel absolutely nothing. God will wipe away all of your tears and make you immune to feeling sorry for them. It will be 'right' because a certain understanding will come to you.
Indeed it was first certain Church theologians who used such vivids descriptions, it's not some Universalist exaggeration. If you can look deep into your heart and believe that and believe that is truly the will of the God of love than nothing on heaven and earth can change your mind. And so be it.
This debate could go on and on. No one is going to change the other's mind overnight. I just hope people like Mike are truly comfortable with the implications of what they believe in, if they are going to live with them for eternity. A select few believers rejoicing in heaven while they watch billions of people - dead, now living, and to be born - in absolute physical and mental agony, while they praise God for this torture in the name of justice. According to you Jesus and the saints - including you, presumably, will behold this spectacle forever. Does this thought fill you with joy? Watching an unsaved relative begging for mercy? You'll probably say, like Luther or Augustine, that you'll feel absolutely nothing. God will wipe away all of your tears and make you immune to feeling sorry for them. It will be 'right' because a certain understanding will come to you.
Indeed it was first certain Church theologians who used such vivids descriptions, it's not some Universalist exaggeration. If you can look deep into your heart and believe that and believe that is truly the will of the God of love than nothing on heaven and earth can change your mind. And so be it.
Who are you addressing here? If you are addressing this to me, you go back over my almost 4000 posts and find where I even once said that believers in heaven will be watching what goes on in the lake of fire.
Reality is what it is. All of your emotional reactions and denial do nothing to change it. The Bible which is the written word of God says that unbelievers will suffer in torment forever Revelation 20:10 for example. If you can't deal with reality then retreat into your personal fantasy world and enjoy it while you can.
And by the way, I am completely comfortable with the reality of the lake of fire. Those who end up there have only themselves to blame. When the truth is presented to someone and they choose to ignore it, I will have done all that I can do to warn them. My conscience is clear.
And by the way, I am completely comfortable with the reality of the lake of fire. Those who end up there have only themselves to blame. When the truth is presented to someone and they choose to ignore it, I will have done all that I can do to warn them. My conscience is clear.
When ever i see on the local news about young men throwing away their lives and cast into prison for long sentences , my heart goes out for them , i am not condoning what they have done , i just grieve for lives ruined through wrong choices. So i cannot identify with your clear conscience regarding the fete of those you believe are going to burn in eternal torment .
When ever i see on the local news about young men throwing away their lives and cast into prison for long sentences , my heart goes out for them , i am not condoning what they have done , i just grieve for lives ruined through wrong choices. So i cannot identify with your clear conscience regarding the fete of those you believe are going to burn in eternal torment .
When ever i see on the local news about young men throwing away their lives and cast into prison for long sentences , my heart goes out for them , i am not condoning what they have done , i just grieve for lives ruined through wrong choices. So i cannot identify with your clear conscience regarding the fete of those you believe are going to burn in eternal torment .
Since this thread is about justice I suppose I can address this without going off topic.
I save my feelings for their victims. Instead of murderers and rapists being allowed to sit in prison, they should be taken out and executed. They should be removed from this earth. And good riddance to them.
Since this thread is about justice I suppose I can address this without going off topic.
I save my feelings for their victims. Instead of murderers and rapists being allowed to sit in prison, they should be taken out and executed. They should be removed from this earth. And good riddance to them.
Since this thread is about justice I suppose I can address this without going off topic.
I save my feelings for their victims. Instead of murderers and rapists being allowed to sit in prison, they should be taken out and executed. They should be removed from this earth. And good riddance to them.
Well, there goes Paul and David. I guess you can tell God he's doing things all wrong. Be my guest.
Does anybody want to make a list of Bible characters who murdered and/or raped others?
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I'm so glad Jesus showed up! He wanted to take away the pagan people's fear of dying and their pagan ideas of the underworld. Good News!! 
