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I was referring to how you said some people say Jesus didn't mention hell.
I was acknowledging how there are people on both sides of the argument that don't really have a proper argument.
I beg to differ. The people who talk of pagan hells in Christian groups don't have a leg to stand on. Jesus mentioned a coming judgment on the Jews, which happened in 70 A.D. The only time he used the word "Gehenna" was in his attacks on their group. Revelation is the only place where a "lake of fire" is mentioned, in a book of visions and symbols, which probably has more of a link to the "river of fire" coming from God's throne in Daniel than anything else. And the sea of glass mingled with fire? Think about it.
Here is a good old fashioned evangelical group who believes in annihilation and doesn't believe in the trinity or evangelical (pagan) hells. Not a "cult." Not anything, really. Just a group of people who study. Here is a link to their site.~~All about Sheol and hell
I'm curious, when you say you don't believe in hell, do you not believe in an eternal hell or hell at all? Do you believe in a purgatorial type hell?
I believe in the lake of fire, and I believe that saints shall judge the world, just like the Bible says. What the lake of fire is exactly, will be shown below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClearNight
If u do not believe in hell, what was the post with the lake of fires and the angels all about...? followed by...it gets better and better..
If, and I have no reason other than yourposts you do not believe in hell
then ....ALL suggestions of this are very happliy retracted.
Well, it does get better and better, at least for the people with nothing to hide, for the light will reveal any darkness within us as soon as we are hit with it.
For those cowering in the corners of churches waiting to be struck by lightning for doing the smallest little thing, they will one day be overjoyed by the mercy and love of the father, because mercy triumphs over judgment (James 2:13). For those preachers and teachers who know full well that what they teach is a crock, and for the people out there right now profiting from sales of the most twisted thing their little brains could dream up (profiting off of scared and dark souls---it truly is a sick world), the lake of fire is going to be a problem. Because, no, Egyptian/Greek/Nordic/ pagan underworlds do not exist, but the lake of fire does. And that lake of fire will torment anything that does not love, because that lake of fire is love and God's anger (which springs from an awesome love) is a fire. And the saints will judge angels, and the saints will judge the world (I Corinthians 6:2-3).
I John 4:18. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
If I speak in the tongues of men and angels,
but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a tinkling symbol.
And if I have prophecy and know all mysteries and all knowledge,
and if I have all faith so as to remove mountains,
but have not love,I am nothing.
And if I dole out all my goods, and
if I deliver my body that I may boast
but have not love,nothing I am profited.
Love is long suffering, love is kind, love is not jealous, love does not boast, love is not inflated. love is not discourteous, love is not selfish, love is not irritable, love does not rejoice in evil. love does not rejoice over the wrong, but rejoices in the truth love covers all things, love has faith in all things, love hopes in all things, love endures in all things. Love never fails;
but whether prophecies, they will be abolished; or
tongues, they will cease; or
knowledge, it will be superseded.
For we know in part and we prophecy in part. But when the perfect comes, the imperfect will be superseded. When I was an infant,
I spoke as an infant,
I reckoned as an infant; when I became [an adult],
I abolished the things of the infant. For now we see through a mirror in an enigma, but then face to face.
Now I know in part, but then I shall know as also I was fully known.
But now remains faith, hope, love,these three;
but the greatest of these is love.
Last edited by herefornow; 10-22-2010 at 01:37 AM..
Studying alot about a subject is pointless if you only do so from one point of view. It will just re-confirm your beliefs. Which is why a diversity of source materials is important in forming a balanced view.
Hey Trimac
I think you will find that most of us who now believe in UR believed in the horror myth of eternal torment prior to that . So we have been of that point of view.
Finn like i have said to you a couple of posts ago , i challenged you in the recent past about all your posts lacking anything to do with the love of God , and to prove to me otherwise , and of all your posts to that date all you could come up with was a post were you mentioned John 3 verse 16.
You claimed I NEVER said anything about love, and asked for ONE example, so I gave you ONE example.
I exposed your lie, so I am surprised to see you bring it up again.
I am not interested in your games. You have a tendency of making everything here personal, and this post is a perfect example. You, you, you, me, me, me...... no thanks. Play with someone else.
You claimed I NEVER said anything about love, and asked for ONE example, so I gave you ONE example.
I exposed your lie, so I am surprised to see you bring it up again.
I am not interested in your games. You have a tendency of making everything here personal, and this post is a perfect example. You, you, you, me, me, me...... no thanks. Play with someone else.
Are you serious Finn ? virtually every post of yours is about ET or debating those who reject it and you find 1 measly post that quotes John 3 16 and the only reason you quoted that scripture was in reference to the part of the verse that you believe means ET and you say you talk about love , i almost choked on my cheerios.
I would like to add my own thoughts on this topic.
What I have observed throughout this thread has been the classic dualistic battle going on between various members, purpoting extreme viewpoints on each end of the scale regarding their views on Christianity, most notably salvation.
On the one hand we have those on the extreme view that Enternal Damnation is the truth, and that all those who don't "believe" will find themselves in hell for eternity. On the other hand, we have those who claim that all will eventually be "saved", and that the "lake of fire" refers not to a place of eternal torment but to a spiritual refining process to cleanse sins.
I personally believe that one of the biggest demonstrations of God's Love is the concept (or rather, reality) of Free Will. We choose our own destiny in every aspect of life, every decision, every second of conciousness. But ultimately, there are only two main distinctions that our choices fall into. Those which are of God, and those which are not. Those are the only real choices we ever make.
The fact is, there are always going to be some people who for whatever reason have no interest in a relationship with God, or spiritual development, or salvation, in whichever way one might look at it. As they have free will, it is their decision to live like that. However, that kind of iniquity can not persist in the universe, and therefore if the person does not "turn around" and develop the Christ Conciousness, then they will run into the "second death".
The "lake of fire" does not refer to a place of eternal torment. It is indeed a refining process, but is closer or Annihalism in that a soul full of sin which was not saved and experiences the second death, will be restored to full pure God energy by that process, but will lose any of the identity it experienced as a human soul. In other words, the person associated with that soul will basically be wiped into nothing and cease to exist. That would be the ultimate "price" for "sin".
As for Hell, if you have ever read of "Near Death Experiences" you may realise some insights into various spiritual realms which exist, including the astral planes. Hell is indeed a very real (albeit spiritual) plane of existence created by those stuck in the belief that they are seperated from God. However, it is not necessarily an "eternal" situation for every soul. Souls still have a choice to rise out of it and seek to develop their spirituality.
Back onto the topic of Free Will, another problem with the traditional Christian beliefs is the concept of what Jesus was "for". The concept that Jesus paid a sacrifice for our sins on the cross and to be our personal saviour who'll pay the debt of our sins if we should just believe in him, is plain wrong.
If it was as easy as just believing that, and praying that Jesus will pay off our sins, then nearly everybody would be getting "saved". In fact though, there is little more substance to that idea than this example;
Imagine you have a bank account with a debt of $100,000, all because you couldn't control your outrageous spending. You know it should really be your sole responsibility to pay off that debt yourself, as you created it. However, you meet a nice man in the street who says that if you believe in what he will do, you can sign his contract and he will, just in an instant, pay off your debt. Some Christians act as though that is what Jesus is all about.
The problem with that however, is that said "Jesus" would simply be taking responsibility for all OUR mistakes/sins, and we would not be learning a single lesson at all, yet still be somehow getting saved. If the concept of salvation is anything like that, then that distinctly violates Free Will to some extent, because with free will, you have the choice to make your bed, but you must lie in it. You must pay back the debt of your sins yourself.
So how about that? Well, salvation is not about "accepting jesus as a saviour to pay off all my mistakes" and that baloney. It is about developing the "Christ mind". That is what Jesus spent his life demonstrating with healing, his teachings, inc. how he dealt with sinners, poor people, and notably, religous people of the times, with whom he was extremely ennervated, of course.
Those religous people, notably the Pharisees, were very much like the fundamentalist type christians you see today. So sure of what they believe, and thinking they know all the truth of God there is, talking the talk but never walking their walk. Full of crap. That same nonsense is rampantly perpetuated by numerous people in this thread. If Jesus were around on earth today, I shouldn't wonder that if he saw the comments and beliefs of some on this thread, he would say exactly the same things as he said to the Pharisees 2000 years ago.
The point of "salvation" is developing the Christ Conciousness, which Jesus came to demonstrate. The essence of the Christ mind is that it transcends the duality (evident in the battles on this forum) of our ego minds and allows the genuine Spirit of God to pour through one's soul so they can truly determine what is true and what is not, and live by that. Then, it would be almost impossible to even sin.
Trouble on here is most have become swayed with sticking to a rigid set of external teachings and beliefs, a sticky doctrine, which they must always be straining to defend, but never willing to transcend. I've seen people on here claim they are in daily communion with the "Holy Spirit". Oh? And how exactly?
Nonetheless, barely anybody can agree, and we see people speaking from opposite viewpoints on topics such as salvation, and all missing the point.
Yes there is a 'both'. And it has already been explained.
Your explanatiopn fails simply because you teach Gods attributes working as separate things and that is not how it is.
Quote:
Of course God's wrath remains until a person believes in Christ. But if a person dies without believing in Christ then he is eternally lost.
Nope, because God has made provision otherwise, the ransom paid is testified in due time.
Quote:
They are two different things. All of God's attributes work together in perfect balance, but they are separate things. Rejecting God's grace in salvation, which though motivated by His love is actually the policy of the justice of God in blessing mankind, will result in eternity in the lake of fire. God's love will not interfere with the function of His justice in carrying out that sentence.
They are not separate. God is love that is all encompassing of all that he is and does.
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But you are not going to understand this no matter how clearly it is presented to you, so to continue on with this is useless. I know that there are some who will understand it however
Finn, have you ever even studied anything about hell? I don't think I've ever seen a post from you that suggests you have.
Yes, although I am far more interested in the good news of Gods love and salvation. God loved us so much that he sent his only son so that those who believe in Him will be saved. Once you have a relationship with Christ you won't need to worry about hell.
You want to talk about hell, you talk about hell. There are plenty of universalists here who talk about hell practically non-stop, so you will have plenty of people to talk with.
You are the hell preacher, not me. Your approach to convincing people to share your faith is not the promotion of your own faith, but the smearing of other faiths. You sound like the the modern day Republicans who spend their days smearing Democrats as opposed to promoting their own ideas. They hope that if they smear the Dems enough, then people will vote for them. They offer no solutions, only smear. It is not a good approach.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 10-22-2010 at 07:39 AM..
Are you serious Finn ? virtually every post of yours is about ET or debating those who reject it and you find 1 measly post that quotes John 3 16 and the only reason you quoted that scripture was in reference to the part of the verse that you believe means ET and you say you talk about love , i almost choked on my cheerios.
me, me, me, you, you you, me good christian, you bad christian.
Again, play your games with someone else
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