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Sciota, your ideas as to Adam being some type of Israel is not correct.
You wrote:
Quote:
Adam is proto Israel, not the biological father of mankind.
In Luke 3:38 Luke traced the lineage of Jesus Christ back to the biological Adam. If Adam was not a real person then the whole lineage of Christ is worthless and Christ cannot be proven to be the Messiah.
Paul said that the first human was Adam:
1Co 15:45 The first man, Adam, became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
Jude 1:14 said Enoch was the 7th from Adam. It would not make sense to make Adam just a type or figure of speech. People don't come from figures of speech.
Sciota, Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of every creature (Col.1:15) and as such has done everything a Firstborn should do as evidenced in Colossians 1:20.
That is what this whole string is about you know. Or had you forgotten?
LOL Alabama...no you are not right, as your paradigm has skewed your entire outlook on the scripture, and you have done much damage to it, as you liberally remove its themes from their very context.
What you UR people fail to realize that this is a covenant, beginning with Adam, not the first biological humanoid to walk the earth, but was removed from the world of beasts and brought into the garden of Eden to have fellowship with God. Read that....removed from the WORLD, that very world you live in today, as Cain's wife lived in, and those whom he feared once he was banished for killing his brother lived in. THe world apart from the Garden, the covenant with God. That peculiar line..those who called on the name of the Lord, those who fell into wickedness and were destroyed in the flood...these were all from Adam's third born Seth, born after Cain was banished. Read the text....Gen 3-5 as I asked you, and you will see the discrepancy in your veiw, as with many young, gap, framework views of creation and Adam. Adam is the first covenantal man brought into a relationship with God, and through him was created Israel, and through Israel, was consummated in Christ, for those to enter into covenant. Mankind was not saved automatically. His people were saved. Mankind was given a salvific covenant that gives him life through Christ. God so loved the KOSMOS...the covenant He had with Adam, and through Christ He gave His only Son...so that those who believe on Him will inherit eternal life. Christ is the propitation. We are atoned by our belief in Him. The covenant was restored with GOD's Peculiar People. Now they can have life, not death. Now they can have that garden back, the fruit from the tree of life, APART from the world. This is all specificallyconsistent with the scriptures. From Genesis to Revelation, and it isn't about a shiny new planet with Christians running around saved singing kumbaya..this is about a spiritual relationship restored with God. That's it.
I'm not even sure where to begin...but I'll try...
The Garden was the covenant of works. Works my friend, not grace. A works covenant where there is NO fellowship with God.
There has always been two covenants in existence. The Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace. Being of Presbyterian persuasion, you must know this.
And both those covenants exist (spiritually) to this very day. ALL MANKIND were represented by Adam in the covenant of Works when he sinned in the garden:
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
It was not until Adam WAS removed from the Garden (the Covenant of Works) where God had foreshadowed the Covenant of Grace upon him that he could realize Grace. That covenant of Grace, God entered into by the faith of Christ included Adam and ALL Adam's posterity who were represented in Adam when God covered Adam and his wife with skins. That Covenant of Grace has never been lost. It's the covenant of works that God will not allow anyone to return to and be justified thereby:
Gen 3:24 yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.
Rom 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.
And ALL MANKIND was justified (constituted righteous) by the faith (or faithfulness) of Christ in His death and obedience to God. That work of Christ (His obedience) that was foreshadowed by the skin covering in Gen 3:21 was extended to Adam and ALL of Adams decedents:
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
I don't really now how to make it anymore simple than that . But I can tell that you don't believe it. You're now claiming to be under the covenant of Works that you claim God has restored you to. I'll quote you here:
"We are atoned by our belief in Him.The covenant was restored with GOD's Peculiar People."
If that is the Covenant you've been restored to (by your own testimony), than perhaps you, as well as that other peculiar person (HotinAZ) are back under the covenant of Works, and not Grace...
I think both you and HotinAZ need to rethink your theology...
Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 10-25-2010 at 08:29 PM..
Reason: added reference
Wow, great post!! I am so glad you SEE this. Another person has been awakened by the Spirit!!
I am going to copy parts of it for future reference if that is alright with you.
This is becoming ridiculous...lol...See my comments to Sciota, they apply here as well. It's like I'm discussing biblical doctrines with Hindus or something (no offense to the Hindus), whatever common ground we have between us is shrinking fast... LOL
Sciota - In a previous post I had asked if you believe in the two-seed doctrine. I'm reading between the lines (what you post) that you might. Can you clarify that for me?
If so, do you believe that God has created (or allowed to come into being) that particular seed of Mankind for the purpose of reprobation?
This is becoming ridiculous...lol...See my comments to Sciota, they apply here as well. It's like I'm discussing biblical doctrines with Hindus or something (no offense to the Hindus), whatever common ground we have between us is shrinking fast... LOL
AlabamaS, believe me, I know exactly how you feel.
I'm not even sure where to begin...but I'll try...
The Garden was the covenant of works. Works my friend, not grace. A works covenant where there is NO fellowship with God.
How can you say this? God talked to Adam, and walked in the garden amongst them.
Quote:
There has always been two covenants in existence. The Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace.
No there hasn't. There WAS only works, and THEN came grace.
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
If not, and you are right????
Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
Quote:
And both those covenants exist (spiritually) to this very day. ALL MANKIND were represented by Adam in the covenant of Works when he sinned in the garden:
Rom 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
Yes, they both exist even today. 1 saves, the other does not.
Quote:
It was not until Adam WAS removed from the Garden (the Covenant of Works) where God had foreshadowed the Covenant of Grace upon him that he could realize Grace. That covenant of Grace, God entered into by the faith of Christ included Adam and ALL Adam's posterity who were represented in Adam when God covered Adam and his wife with skins. That Covenant of Grace has never been lost. It's the covenant of works that God will not allow anyone to return to and be justified thereby:
Gen 3:24 yea, he casteth out the man, and causeth to dwell at the east of the garden of Eden the cherubs and the flame of the sword which is turning itself round to guard the way of the tree of life.
And you say our theology is flawed? Wow, what a stretch.
Quote:
Rom 3:20 wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.
And ALL MANKIND was justified (constituted righteous) by the faith (or faithfulness) of Christ in His death and obedience to God. That work of Christ (His obedience) that was foreshadowed by the skin covering in Gen 3:21 was extended to Adam and ALL of Adams decedents:
Rom 5:19 for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.
Where do you keep getting this skin covering theology from? \
Quote:
I don't really now how to make it anymore simple than that .
But I can tell that you don't believe it.
You are right, because you are wrong, wrong, wrong.
Quote:
You're now claiming to be under the covenant of Works that you claim God has restored you to.
No he isn't.
Quote:
I'll quote you here:
"We are atoned by our belief in Him.The covenant was restored with GOD's Peculiar People."
Belief is NOT works.
Quote:
If that is the Covenant you've been restored to (by your own testimony), than perhaps you, as well as that other peculiar person (HotinAZ) are back under the covenant of Works, and not Grace...
Well, it isn't so this peculiar person isn't following your flawed theological doctrine. Wow, what a stretch this post is.
Quote:
I think both you and HotinAZ need to rethink your theology...
I think you need to start ALL over, and throw out everything, you think you know. That is the best place to start. You already havethe belief, so let the Spirit expand your knowledge through His Wisdom. Whew, what a post.....
Sciota - In a previous post I had asked if you believe in the two-seed doctrine. I'm reading between the lines (what you post) that you might. Can you clarify that for me?
If so, do you believe that God has created (or allowed to come into being) that particular seed of Mankind for the purpose of reprobation?
No..I don't. Covenant Creation is what I believe. There are no two seeds. Adam bore Seth...those that called upon the name of the Lord, such as, in covenant. Anyone else, was not born of Satan or some other evil seed like Cain, but were simply there before Seth, as in Cain's wife, those who Cain feared, etc, as the Bible addresses clearly, they are outside of Adam's lineage. How did they get there? The scripture does not address it. But science does. The Bible does not conflict with what science presents either. In fact, it supports ANE literature in lieu of the the Biblical creation account. If you knew this, you wouldn't be asking. Like I said, you, nor anyone else has any Biblical proof that Adam is the first biological humanoid to walk the earth. However, there is much Biblical proof, that he wasn't. I choose to stay strict to the text, as it appears, that you do not. Maybe a refresher on Mesapotamian literature would help?
To address your lengthy post in a couple of sentences...no...the garden was not the covenant of works.....where do you get that anyway? What part of Tree of Life are you having trouble with? Works did not begin until after he was cast out of the garden:
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Instead of the thorn, will come up the fir tree, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle tree: and it will be to the Lord for a name, for an everlasting sign that will not be cut off.
Your themes are skewed and confused. As Hot stated, first works, then grace. Grace had no part in the Covenant with Death. That was annulled Isa 28 through Christ...understand...annulled covenant....fulfiiled not destroyed...jot or tittle.....saved the covenant..saved the relationship....saved the people who had faith and will have faith, by removing the partition for all to have access to the tree of life and come to the knowledge of truth - 1 Tim 2:4-6 and Eph 2:14
Last edited by sciotamicks; 10-25-2010 at 09:55 PM..
Sciota, your ideas as to Adam being some type of Israel is not correct.
You wrote:
In Luke 3:38 Luke traced the lineage of Jesus Christ back to the biological Adam. If Adam was not a real person then the whole lineage of Christ is worthless and Christ cannot be proven to be the Messiah.
Paul said that the first human was Adam:
1Co 15:45 The first man, Adam, became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
Jude 1:14 said Enoch was the 7th from Adam. It would not make sense to make Adam just a type or figure of speech. People don't come from figures of speech.
Sciota, Jesus Christ is the Firstborn of every creature (Col.1:15) and as such has done everything a Firstborn should do as evidenced in Colossians 1:20.
That is what this whole string is about you know. Or had you forgotten?
So what? No one ever said Adam wasn't a real person. Between Christ and Adam are roughly 4000+ years give or take....and no he wasn't the first man, which has no bearing on Christ salvific work either. You forget, the covenant was restored.....not mankind. Mankind must enter into covenant and accept the propitation to be atoned for. What do you think the Heavens and Earth mean?
You are uneducated in Jewish thought Eusebius.
Here is a quick lesson:
Man - Jew
Beast - Gentile
Understand? These themes might be a little deep for you as it seems, but they are there, are you willing to look? Who did Peter rise up to, killed, and ate?
He ate a beast. He evangelized to a Gentile. Who is Hosea speaking about in chapter 2? There are much more...would you like me to continue? I can take this all the way back to the beginning...... who are the animals Adam was trying to name? Or acquire as a help meet? Do you know what help meet implies?
Adam first Jew - Covenant damaged
Christ last Jew - Covenant restored
In Christ we are Jews.
From Adam bore Israel through Seth to Enoch to Noah to Abraham.
Adam is proto Israel.
Last edited by sciotamicks; 10-25-2010 at 10:55 PM..
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LOL 
these guys maybe two-seeders 
to admit it 
in a public forum 
. 
