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Old 10-27-2010, 03:57 PM
 
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Ok ladies and gents:

There seems to be apparent contradiction in the Bible - is salvation and all that follows by faith or works? The christian doctrine is not clear. Now connect this with the parable of the sower, those that fell on rocky ground and the land with thorns who were saved, was it their fault they couldnt keep up with the faith?
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:20 PM
 
18,191 posts, read 13,913,583 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyoeyo View Post
Ok ladies and gents:

There seems to be apparent contradiction in the Bible - is salvation and all that follows by faith or works? The christian doctrine is not clear. Now connect this with the parable of the sower, those that fell on rocky ground and the land with thorns who were saved, was it their fault they couldnt keep up with the faith?
There are no contradictions in the Bible. Eternal salvation results from faith alone in Christ alone. You must distinquish between salvation and the spiritual life after you have been saved. It is through placing your non-meritorious faith in Christ, that you are saved by the object of your faith which in salvation is Jesus Christ, in whom the merit lies.

The Scriptures directly state that salvation is not by works.

Ephesians 2:8 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that (salvation) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9] not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

Titus 3:5 'He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

Whenever the Bible talks about works, it is not in connection with becoming saved or maintaining salvation. Once a person is saved, he is saved forever.

Works are the result of spiritual growth after a person has been saved. Works don't produce spiritual growth, they are instead, the result of spiritual growth.

Every disciple of Christ is a believer, but not every believer is a disciple. When James says that faith without works is dead, he simply means that without works there is no visible manifestion of the believers faith. People can only see the believers faith by what he does. But the believer is justified before God by his faith. Not by his works.

If people would learn the difference between positional sanctification in which the believer is positionally in Christ and therefore seen as perfect (positionally) by God, and experiential sanctifcation which is the result of spiritual growth after the believer has been saved, there would be no confusion concerning faith and works.

Romans 11:6 'But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

The believer should grow spiritually by learning and applying Bible doctrine to his life after he has been saved. And he will then produce good works. But he is not saved by his works.

Everyone is responsible to make their own decisions to maintain their spiritual growth after salvation. The believer must place his spiritual growth as his first priority in life and not allow himself to be distracted by the cares of this world.
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Old 10-27-2010, 07:22 PM
 
5,500 posts, read 4,116,354 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eyoeyo View Post
Ok ladies and gents:

There seems to be apparent contradiction in the Bible - is salvation and all that follows by faith or works? The christian doctrine is not clear. Now connect this with the parable of the sower, those that fell on rocky ground and the land with thorns who were saved, was it their fault they couldnt keep up with the faith?
Paul's letter to the Galatians:
Galatians 3:6-12 Abraham Was Justified by Faith, Not by Works"

6 Even as Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under a curse: for it is written, CURSED IS EVERY ONE THAT CONTINUETH NOT IN ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW TO DO THEM.

James' (Jacob in Hebrew) letter to the 12 tribes James 1:1:
James 2:19-21 "Faith Without Works Is Dead"
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Are these two passages at odds with one another, if so, which of the two is supported clearly in the scripture???

~~~~~~~~~~~
Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall "do" the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

John 15:12-14 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you

13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. (message to Philadelphia...brotherly love Rev. 3:7)

14 Ye, are my friends, "if ye do" whatsoever I command you.

I believe that this is the "work" we are exhorted to spiritually strive for!

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, ACCORDING TO THEIR WORKS.

P.S. Your user ID struck a funny thought, "Hihohiho off to work we go" just a friendly banter...

Peace!

Last edited by ans57; 10-27-2010 at 07:47 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 10-27-2010, 11:18 PM
 
5 posts, read 4,211 times
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@Mike555
May I respectfuly say that you have just contradicted yourself in these words:

Quote:
[bold]Everyone is responsible to make their own decisions to maintain[/bold] their spiritual growth after salvation. The believer must place his spiritual growth as his first priority in life and [bold]not allow himself to be distracted by the cares of this world[/bold].
The bolded parts are works. How do you explain where God says that the Spirit predicts that in later times many will depart from the faith; if such depature from the faith is because the ppl chose to, then that means their "work of willing to keep with the faith" was not enough.

Moreover the parable of the sower contains people who got saved on rocky ground and were damned, only those that fell on fertile soil are saved.

"He that endureth to the end SHALL BE SAVED"

According to a recent broadcast by Benny Hinn Ministries, eternal life is only eternal to those who hear the word and keep it (work). Supporting scriptures were provided in the telecast.

My logical conclusion is that its very mean of God to deceive people (I make no such accusation lest it be blasphemy! - I am just being honest about my feelings). Also note:

"... homosexuals, fornicators, etc shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven"; so many professing Christians are these things and even though they will not to be (work), it is not going away - so does it mean they will be punished for sins they have no control over? If so then is salvation, righteousness etc by faith or works? For people who have quoted Bible, there are equivalent verses saying how if you dont strive you will be cast away.

Can I have honest input?
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Old 10-28-2010, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,325 posts, read 4,860,202 times
Reputation: 660
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyoeyo View Post
Ok ladies and gents:

There seems to be apparent contradiction in the Bible - is salvation and all that follows by faith or works? The christian doctrine is not clear. Now connect this with the parable of the sower, those that fell on rocky ground and the land with thorns who were saved, was it their fault they couldnt keep up with the faith?
Salvation is by works. When faith turns to knowing then that person is truely a child of God and faith is no longer needed. In my own journey, I have come to know without any doubt that God is real as I have felt His essence in my soul. I no longer have faith that He is real, I know He is real.

By doing the works that Jesus told us about, by acquiring the substance of God, we are then becoming perfect as Gods is perfect. Without the essence of God, no man can become the likeness of God and will always remain in the image. It is by works, asking for His Divine Love, that salvation is guaranteed.
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Old 10-28-2010, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Italy
6,387 posts, read 4,766,163 times
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All have been given spiritual riches in Christ, who is within us. However, not everyone has been given to understand this hope.
Even faith is not ours, it comes from God, because we receive everything from Him, we have nothing of ourselves.

So faith is given by God, and not all have faith (yet).
The works are simply the fruits of the Spirit, if we are walking in the Spirit. That which is not of the Spirit will be burned, and man will be perfected in God's time.

Blessings!
Brian
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Old 10-28-2010, 12:43 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,424 posts, read 9,053,303 times
Reputation: 1252
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyoeyo View Post
@Mike555
May I respectfuly say that you have just contradicted yourself in these words:

The bolded parts are works. How do you explain where God says that the Spirit predicts that in later times many will depart from the faith; if such depature from the faith is because the ppl chose to, then that means their "work of willing to keep with the faith" was not enough.

Moreover the parable of the sower contains people who got saved on rocky ground and were damned, only those that fell on fertile soil are saved.

"He that endureth to the end SHALL BE SAVED"

According to a recent broadcast by Benny Hinn Ministries, eternal life is only eternal to those who hear the word and keep it (work). Supporting scriptures were provided in the telecast.

My logical conclusion is that its very mean of God to deceive people (I make no such accusation lest it be blasphemy! - I am just being honest about my feelings). Also note:

"... homosexuals, fornicators, etc shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven"; so many professing Christians are these things and even though they will not to be (work), it is not going away - so does it mean they will be punished for sins they have no control over? If so then is salvation, righteousness etc by faith or works? For people who have quoted Bible, there are equivalent verses saying how if you dont strive you will be cast away.

Can I have honest input?
You have two parts to this...
1. does the Bible teach faith alone or faith and works combo?
2. OSAS .... is it the truth despite other scriptures indicating otherwise (will answer later)

\\\\\\\\\\ 1. faith alone or faith and works combo? ///////////////////

The question: "What must we do to do the works God requires?" John 6:28

The simple answer: Sola fide (faith alone) , Solus Christus (Christ alone) is the "work" in John 6:29

John 6:29
"Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.' " (see: Ephesians 2:8, Titus 3:5, Romans 3:21-31, all of Romans 4, Romans 5:1)
If you understand that faith is the "work", then other scriptures can be understood in that context. Scriptures like:"hear the word of God and keep it"

*** Sola Fida must be understood that justification is an act, a declaration by God. It is not a process.***

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||

The complex answer: "faith alone" is never by "faith alone"

The scripture also teaches:

Sola scriptura ("scripture alone"):
the only [color=black]Moderator cut: deleted due to copyright


Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
  • 1. God as sole actor in grace (in other words, that grace is always efficacious without any cooperation by man) meaning that conversion of sinners is a gift of God and not the result of any human effort or decision.
  • 2. that man cannot by any action of his own, acting under the influence of grace, cooperate with grace to "merit" greater graces for himself.
  • 3. God acts alone to save the sinner.
  • 4. The responsibility for salvation does not rest on the sinner to any degree BUT NOT TO INCLUDE gratia universalis (that God seriously wills the salvation of all people).
  • 5. Forgiveness of sin is without cost or proof of worthiness
  • 6. Though sinful, we are seen as perfect by God because of Jesus as our subsitute, not as an example to follow.
Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")
All glory is to be due to God alone. Moderator cut: deleted due to copyrightthat is created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit, which is the purpose for a faith that "shines" or producing "fruits" (good works).

Last edited by june 7th; 10-28-2010 at 12:59 PM..
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Old 10-28-2010, 01:05 PM
 
18,191 posts, read 13,913,583 times
Reputation: 5978
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyoeyo View Post
@Mike555
May I respectfuly say that you have just contradicted yourself in these words:

The bolded parts are works. How do you explain where God says that the Spirit predicts that in later times many will depart from the faith; if such depature from the faith is because the ppl chose to, then that means their "work of willing to keep with the faith" was not enough.

Moreover the parable of the sower contains people who got saved on rocky ground and were damned, only those that fell on fertile soil are saved.

"He that endureth to the end SHALL BE SAVED"

According to a recent broadcast by Benny Hinn Ministries, eternal life is only eternal to those who hear the word and keep it (work). Supporting scriptures were provided in the telecast.

My logical conclusion is that its very mean of God to deceive people (I make no such accusation lest it be blasphemy! - I am just being honest about my feelings). Also note:

"... homosexuals, fornicators, etc shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven"; so many professing Christians are these things and even though they will not to be (work), it is not going away - so does it mean they will be punished for sins they have no control over? If so then is salvation, righteousness etc by faith or works? For people who have quoted Bible, there are equivalent verses saying how if you dont strive you will be cast away.

Can I have honest input?
No, I have not contradicted myself. Salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. But after he has been saved, the believer is commanded to grow up spiritually. And that requires decisions on the part of the believer to study and show himself approved unto God, a workman that need not be ashamed.

Everyone is responsible for their decisions regarding their spiritual life. At any given moment, the believer is either progressing in his spiritual life or he is retrogressing. No one stands still in his spiritual life. Once you are saved you are saved forever. That is eternal security. But your spiritual life after you are saved requires that you keep your spiritual life as top priority in your life if you are to advance to spiritual maturity.

Falling away does not mean falling away from salvation. It does not mean losing your salvation. It means veering off course from the truth. The believer is saved, but he can be drawn into cosmic deceptions if he doesn't maintain his intake of Bible doctrine.

The phrase you mentioned from Matthew 24:13 ' But he who endures to the end, he shall be saved,' does not refer to eternal salvation. It refers to tribulational believers who survive to the end of the Tribulation going into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. It is they who will populate the Millennial kingdom.

1 Corinthians 6:9 gives a list of those sins which will prevent the believer from inheriting the kingdom of God. Not from inhabiting the kingdom of God. It is a matter of attaining eternal rewards vesus not receiving eternal rewards. Failure to grow up spiritually and continuing to indulge in unrighteous behavior will simply result in missing out on the blessings and rewards which otherwise would have been received by the believer. Not inheriting the kingdom of God does not mean not being eternally saved.

Let me ask you some questions.

1) Do you understand that there is a distinction between what is required to be eternally saved (simply placing your faith in Christ to save you) and what is required to advance to spiritual maturity AFTER you have been saved (persistence in learning and applying Bible doctrine to your life)?

2) Do you understand that the Bible states quite clearly that the believer has been positionally perfected forever? Hebrews 10:14 'For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.'

3] Do you understand that each and every one of your sins has already been judged and paid for by Christ and that therefore it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to commit a sin which has not already been paid for?

4] If you understand the above, then how do you think it possible to lose your salvation because of sin which has already been taken care of by Christ?
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Old 10-28-2010, 01:15 PM
 
4,302 posts, read 4,129,836 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Falling away does not mean falling away from salvation. It does not mean losing your salvation. It means veering off course from the truth. The believer is saved, but he can be drawn into cosmic deceptions if he doesn't maintain his intake of Bible doctrine.
Matthew 5:20
[20] For I [Jesus] say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

After Jesus said this, He proceeded to give His love commandments -- including this:

[29] And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
[30] And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Clearly, keeping Jesus' commandments is a requirement to retain one's salvation.
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Old 10-28-2010, 03:46 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,424 posts, read 9,053,303 times
Reputation: 1252
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
You have two parts to this...
1. does the Bible teach faith alone or faith and works combo?
2. OSAS .... is it the truth despite other scriptures indicating otherwise (will answer later)

\\\\\\\\\\ 1. faith alone or faith and works combo? ///////////////////

The question: "What must we do to do the works God requires?" John 6:28

The simple answer: Sola fide (faith alone) , Solus Christus (Christ alone) is the "work" in John 6:29

John 6:29
"Jesus answered, 'The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.' " (see: Ephesians 2:8, Titus 3:5, Romans 3:21-31, all of Romans 4, Romans 5:1)
If you understand that faith is the "work", then other scriptures can be understood in that context. Scriptures like:"hear the word of God and keep it"

*** Sola Fida must be understood that justification is an act, a declaration by God. It is not a process.***

|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||| |||

The complex answer: "faith alone" is never by "faith alone"

The scripture also teaches:

Sola scriptura ("scripture alone"):
Scripture teaches that it is only the Bible contains all that is necessary for salvation and through scripture we are assured of salvation meeting the perfection that God demands. Any other works are claimed to be "scripture" are to be compared with Bible for accuracy.


The Bible is self suffiecient, is the Divine source of God's Word, claims to be clarity, and is divinely inspired. Not to be understood that scripture is stands alone apart of from God, but is the means by which God uses to bring, sustain people to faith. Apart from which there is no salvation.
Sola scriptura isthe teaching that the Bible is the only inspired and authoritative word of God, is the only source for Christian doctrine, and is accessible to all—that is, it is perspicuous and self-interpreting. That the Bible requires no interpretation outside of itself


Sola gratia ("by grace alone")
  • 1. God as sole actor in grace (in other words, that grace is always efficacious without any cooperation by man) meaning that conversion of sinners is a gift of God and not the result of any human effort or decision.
  • 2. that man cannot by any action of his own, acting under the influence of grace, cooperate with grace to "merit" greater graces for himself.
  • 3. God acts alone to save the sinner.
  • 4. The responsibility for salvation does not rest on the sinner to any degree BUT NOT TO INCLUDE gratia universalis (that God seriously wills the salvation of all people).
  • 5. Forgiveness of sin is without cost or proof of worthiness
  • 6. Though sinful, we are seen as perfect by God because of Jesus as our subsitute, not as an example to follow.
Soli Deo gloria ("glory to God alone")
All glory is to be due to God alone. The act of salvation comes by "grace alone" (see above). It is to God's glory that faith is created in the heart of the believer by the Holy Spirit. The purpose for faith is as Jesus describes it as "shines" or producing "fruits" (good works) is to bring glory to God..



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