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Again, twin, I give you ten verses for your one.
When ten say "utterly gone" and one appears to suggest eternal torment, which would one logically side with?
That it is impossible for people to be "utterly gone" when there "will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
Matthew 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside
"Matthew 13:42 They will throw them into the fiery furnace
Matthew 22:13 Then the king told the attendants, 'Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness
Matthew 24:51 assign him a place with the hypocrites, where ...
Matthew 25:30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness
Luke 13:28 when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out.
That it is impossible for people to be "utterly gone" when people will say "Lord, Lord ...
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven
Matthew 7:22
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
Matthew 25:44
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
That it is impossible for people to be "utterly gone" when people will have God's wrath remain on them
John 3:36
"but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrathremains on him."
Romans 2:5
But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.
Romans 13:4
But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer
Revelation 14:10
he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
That it is impossible for people to be "utterly gone" when there "will be weeping and gnashing of teeth
twin, very few of these verses, if any at all, speak of eternal torment in terms of DURATION. You know that. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth says nothing at all about how LONG they will weep and gnash. Also, Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men to myself" which of course is a support for Universal Redemption but clearly speaks against eternal torment.
Pleas explain what "they will vanish", "they will be no more", " you will not be able to find them", "every evildoer will be stubble", "Not a root or a branch will be left to them", "their carcases" means to you.
twin, very few of these verses, if any at all, speak of eternal torment in terms of DURATION. You know that. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth says nothing at all about how LONG they will weep and gnash. Also, Jesus said, "If I be lifted up I will draw ALL men to myself" which of course is a support for Universal Redemption but clearly speaks against eternal torment.
Pleas explain what "they will vanish", "they will be no more", " you will not be able to find them", "every evildoer will be stubble", "Not a root or a branch will be left to them", "their carcases" means to you.
And also thrill, this is assuming Jesus is talking about the after-life, instead of this life. Weeping and gnashing of teeth could also mean those living the Kingdom now will be happy, and those without will be under trial and persecution. Hense, 70AD and after. Of course, Twin cannot see this, as his eyes have been blinded, as well as those who close their minds off. Only the Spirit can reveal who and what Jesus really is.
And also thrill, this is assuming Jesus is talking about the after-life, instead of this life. Weeping and gnashing of teeth could also mean those living the Kingdom now will be happy, and those without will be under trial and persecution. Hense, 70AD and after. Of course, Twin cannot see this, as his eyes have been blinded, as well as those who close their minds off. Only the Spirit can reveal who and what Jesus really is.
True, Hot. Many Christians who blindly follow eternal torment don't know that prior to Augustine it was not even known. He was the first prominent theologian to introduce the concept, probably because of the extreme guilt that tormented him as a result of his former profligate lifestyle. If ever a person needed a couch it was him. Too bad psychoanalysis wasn't around then. If it was we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.
Eternal torment has been so ingrained into our conscious by the early Church that dominated thought from the time of Constantine to the Enlightenment that it will probably take an equal amount of time to dislodge it as we study the scriptures in more detail. I think there's already enough in what I quoted in my OP to put the lie to ET, but old habits die hard.
Annihilation is what the scripture teaches. Called by "perish" or "destroy" in the Word...
John 3:16 is it in a nutshell. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
All will stand before God at the end of time. Each will be Judged by God with perfect judgment for all things done in this life. If you have accepted Jesus death on the cross, then His death is your payment. Paid in full. Nothing to suffer for. That is why it is called "Good News". The rest will perish. (which means be suffer for their sins and then be destroyed (Annihilated) in body and soul (Matthew 10:28) See www. jewishnotgreek.com for more info. The Bible teaches appropriate suffering – then annihilation (they perish) for the lost (not preservation for eternity.)
Annihilation is what the scripture teaches. Called by "perish" or "destroy" in the Word...
John 3:16 is it in a nutshell. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
All will stand before God at the end of time. Each will be Judged by God with perfect judgment for all things done in this life. If you have accepted Jesus death on the cross, then His death is your payment. Paid in full. Nothing to suffer for. That is why it is called "Good News". The rest will perish. (which means be suffer for their sins and then be destroyed (Annihilated) in body and soul (Matthew 10:28) See www. jewishnotgreek.com for more info. The Bible teaches appropriate suffering – then annihilation (they perish) for the lost (not preservation for eternity.)
Annihilation is what the scripture teaches. Called by "perish" or "destroy" in the Word...
John 3:16 is it in a nutshell. "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
All will stand before God at the end of time. Each will be Judged by God with perfect judgment for all things done in this life. If you have accepted Jesus death on the cross, then His death is your payment. Paid in full. Nothing to suffer for. That is why it is called "Good News". The rest will perish. (which means be suffer for their sins and then be destroyed (Annihilated) in body and soul (Matthew 10:28) See www. jewishnotgreek.com for more info. The Bible teaches appropriate suffering – then annihilation (they perish) for the lost (not preservation for eternity.)
It teaches annihilation and universal salvation. The wicked definately shall perish/be annhilated. However, death is only destroyed by the putting on of life. The wicked are destroyed by putting on righteousness. So does the scriptures teach annihilationism (definately). Does it teach universal salvation (definately).
The Bible does not teach annihilation. The soul is immortal and not subject to annihilation. The word Apollumi - Perish does not mean to cease to exist. It refers not to the loss of being per se, but to a loss of well being. It means to ruin so that the person or thing ruined is no longer able to serve the purpose for which he or it was designed. It means to render useless.
To believe on Jesus Christ for salvation results in eternal life in the presence of God. To reject Christ means to spend the eternal future separated from God in the lake of fire, to have no relationship with God and so to spend eternity in utter ruin and uselessness.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used when He spoke of those who are thrown into Gehenna - the lake of fire (Matthew 10:28). Jesus made it clear elsewhere that the lake of fire is a place of torment, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matt 13:42,50).
Daniel 12:2 speaks of those who will be resurrected to everlasting disgrace and contempt as opposed to those who will be resurrected to everlasting life.
The beast and the false prophet who are men will have been in the lake of fire for one thousand years before Satan joins them (Revelation 19:20 compared with Revelation 20:7-10).
The beast and false prophet are said to be thrown alive into the lake of fire.
As to the fact that the beast is a man, in Rev 13:3 the beast receives a mortal wound which is healed. The fact that he is thrown alive into the lake of fire where he is tormented forever and ever (Rev 20:10) rules out the theory that the beast referred to here is a political system.
Those who are thrown into the lake of fire will be alive forever in that place.
The scriptures testify that anyone not IN CHRIST is dead. No spirit, no resurrection, no life.
...where the worm never dies and the fire is never quenched.
Honestly...for 2000 years Christians have traditionally understood a literal hell...not just being wiped out. Moderator cut: edit
As for the eternality of hell? If you offend an infinitely holy and just God I don't know how you can think for a second that being tormented in hell for a finite amount of time can earn you annihilation.
Last edited by june 7th; 12-27-2011 at 09:56 AM..
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