U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 11-10-2010, 11:50 AM
 
271 posts, read 279,168 times
Reputation: 35

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Note that in Judges 13:18 the angel of the LORD'S name is called Wonderful, and Isaiah 9:6 gives the name Wonderful to the Messiah (Jesus Christ).

Judges 13:18 'But the angel of the LORD said to him, ''Why do you ask my name, seeing it is wonderful?'' (Literally, incomprehensible; secret)

Wonderful: Hebrew - feliy (pali) from Pele; strong's number 6383; incomprehensible, secret.

Isaiah 9:6 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Wonderful: Hebrew - Pele; strong's number 6382; a wonder.

And for those who still don't understand that the angel of the LORD is God Himself, (the Second Person of the Godhead - Jesus Christ),

In the book of Judges, Gideon was afraid that he would die because he had seen the Angel of the LORD, Whom he recognized to be the Lord God. Compare with Ex 33:20. 'But He said, ''You cannot see My face and live!''

Judges 6:22 'When Gideon saw that he was the Angel of the LORD, he said, "Alas, O Lord GOD ! For now I have seen the Angel of the LORD face to face." 23 The LORD said to him, "Peace to you, do not fear; you shall not die." 24 Then Gideon built an altar there to the LORD and named it The LORD is Peace. To this day it is still in Ophrah of the Abiezrites.
-"THE " Angel of Lord doesn't mean he was the same all the times !

-Jesus is not known as wonderful !

-Father is not Jesus !

-i found some translations "is born" "is given"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-10-2010, 02:49 PM
 
18,163 posts, read 13,881,333 times
Reputation: 5958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truth light View Post
-"THE " Angel of Lord doesn't mean he was the same all the times !
In His pre-incarnate appearances, Jesus appeared as a man (Gen. 18:1-2), in the burning bush (Ex.3:2), as the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night to Israel (Ex. 13:21-22).

Quote:
-Jesus is not known as wonderful !
-Father is not Jesus !
-i found some translations "is born" "is given"


Isaiah 9:6 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us (His first advent); [all that follows refers to His reign in the Millennium] And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

Isaiah 9:6-7 finds its ultimate fulfillment when Jesus returns to establish the Messianic Kingdom of God on the earth.


The title 'Eternal Father', does not imply that Jesus is God the Father. They are two distinct individuals of the trinity. The Hebrews used the term 'father' in different ways - as a literal father, a grandfather, an ancestor, a ruler, an instructor. The term 'Eternal Father' is perhaps used with regard to the eternal rulership of Jesus Christ.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2010, 07:41 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,165,312 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Both the Old and New Testaments attest to the deity of Jesus Christ, and during His incarnation, Jesus did refer to His deity. John 8:24 and John 8:58 where Jesus refers to Himself as 'I am' are references to His deity, and to which the Jews reacted by trying to stone Him for saying that He was God (John 8:59; John 10:33)
Again, they did not want to kill him because he said he was God. They wanted to kill him because he said he was God's son.

Now, about John 8:58 in relation to Exodus 3:14~~~

There are many places where the words "I am" are mentioned, many having nothing to do with God. "I am" just means "I exist." "I am that I am" from Exodus 3:14 is translated from Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. Why did Jesus not use this phrase if he was trying to say he was Yahweh? Instead he used "ego eimi."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The term 'Eternal Father' is perhaps used with regard to the eternal rulership of Jesus Christ.
The New Testament does not say that Jesus will rule forever (I Corinthians 15:24). It's one of those danged "forevers" at work here again. Just like in the Old Testament which uses "forevers," even when something comes to an end, "forever" here is used up until Jesus gives the kingdom back to his father.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2010, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Oregon
3,066 posts, read 2,739,473 times
Reputation: 253
Mike555 continues to ignore the plain meaning of the words of scripture and even the timeframe involved.

Isaiah 9:6
“For a child has been born for us, a son given to us;authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His authority shall grow continually, and there shall be endless peacefor the throne of David and his kingdom. He will establish and uphold itwith justice and with righteousness from this time onwards and for evermoreThe zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this." (NRSV)

This relates to either Immanuel or the messiah. If it is the messiah, it’s one of the several Old Testament prophecies that Jesus failed to fulfill.

Problems[:

Jesus was never a ruler of Israel and never sat on the throne of David.

Jesus did not establish endless peace. In fact Jerusalem was destroyed not too long after his life.

Neither event occurred “from this time onwards and evermore."

"A child has been born” in the 8th century BC. Jesus was born in 4 BC or 6 AD depending on whose gospel you believe, not the 8th century BC.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-10-2010 at 09:57 PM.. Reason: removed [SIZE] stuff
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2010, 11:25 PM
 
18,163 posts, read 13,881,333 times
Reputation: 5958
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Again, they did not want to kill him because he said he was God. They wanted to kill him because he said he was God's son.
Just as Jesus' title 'Son of Man' refers to His humanity, to the fact that He is a man, so also His title 'Son of God' refers to His deity, to the fact that He is God.

There are five sonships of Christ. He was the Son of God from eternity past, but He became the Son of Man by incarnation (John 20:17 - speaking as the Son of Man).

1] Son of God. This sonship declares Christ to be the only begotten who is the unique Son, the first-begotten from all eternity (Matthew 16:16). This does not mean that the deity of Jesus was born or created at any time, for He has always existed. The relationship between the First and Second Persons of the trinity is not to be thought of as in a human father and son relationship. God the Father is not really a Father, and God the Son is not really a Son. This is language of acommodation within a plan in which the salvation of man is the issue. The First Person of the Godhead is the author of the plan and therefore, the authority within that plan. The Second Person of the Trinity agreed to come into the world as a member of the human race and subject Himself to the Fathers will. Jesus' title as Son of God means that He has the same nature as God. In other words, He IS God. Just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. The three together are ONE God.

2] The Son of Adam, the Son of Man. This title refers to His human nature (Matthew 8:20).

3] The Son of Abraham. This title of sonship relates Jesus to the Abrahamic covenant (Matthew 1:1).

4] The Son of David. Jesus is here related to the Davidic covenant (Matthew 21:9).

5] The Son of Mary. This Sonship relates Jesus to the incarnation (Matthew 1:25).

Again, as man, Jesus has the title Son of Man. As God, Jesus has the title, Son of God.

Quote:
Now, about John 8:58 in relation to Exodus 3:14~~~

There are many places where the words "I am" are mentioned, many having nothing to do with God. "I am" just means "I exist." "I am that I am" from Exodus 3:14 is translated from Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh. Why did Jesus not use this phrase if he was trying to say he was Yahweh? Instead he used "ego eimi."
'Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh' is Hebrew and is translated 'I AM WHO I AM'.

'Ego eimi' is Greek and is translated as 'I am.' In the context of John 8:58 'Jesus said to them, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'', it is a clear reference to His deity. He didn't say ''before Abraham was, I was''. He said, ''before Abraham was, I am.'' This is the Jehovistic 'I AM.' The eternally self-existant one.

The Jews had said prior to Jesus' statement, ''You are not yet fifty years old and have You seen Abraham?'' (verse 57). They thought that Jesus was only a man. When Jesus said, ''Before Abraham was born, I am,'' He obviously was refering to His pre-existing Abraham and this is a reference to His deity. And the Jews knew what He meant because they tryed to stone Him.

John 10:33 states that the Jews knew that Jesus was claiming equality with God. '...and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.''

Similarly, in John 8:24 Jesus said, ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am (the word 'He' is not found in the original), you shall die in your sins. This again in context, is the Jehovistic 'I am'.

Jesus Christ is Jehovah, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are Jehovah.

Isaiah 45:21-23 refer to Jesus Christ. ''Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD (Yah-weh)? And there is no other God (Elohim) besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22] Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23] I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back. That to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

Quote:
The New Testament does not say that Jesus will rule forever (I Corinthians 15:24). It's one of those danged "forevers" at work here again. Just like in the Old Testament which uses "forevers," even when something comes to an end, "forever" here is used up until Jesus gives the kingdom back to his father.
Yes it does. And I did a thread on it. Here it is. Read the first post carefully. It's short.

Jesus Christ will reign forever.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-10-2010, 11:54 PM
 
18,163 posts, read 13,881,333 times
Reputation: 5958
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
Mike555 continues to ignore the plain meaning of the words of scripture and even the timeframe involved.

Isaiah 9:6
“For a child has been born for us, a son given to us;authority rests upon his shoulders; and he is named Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. His authority shall grow continually, and there shall be endless peacefor the throne of David and his kingdom. He will establish and uphold itwith justice and with righteousness from this time onwards and for evermoreThe zeal of the Lord of hosts will do this." (NRSV)

This relates to either Immanuel or the messiah. If it is the messiah, it’s one of the several Old Testament prophecies that Jesus failed to fulfill.

Problems[:

Jesus was never a ruler of Israel and never sat on the throne of David.

Jesus did not establish endless peace. In fact Jerusalem was destroyed not too long after his life.

Neither event occurred “from this time onwards and evermore."

"A child has been born” in the 8th century BC. Jesus was born in 4 BC or 6 AD depending on whose gospel you believe, not the 8th century BC.
Jesus will rule from the throne of David when He returns at His second coming at the end of the tribulation. After the first phrase 'For a child will be born to us', the rest of the prophecy refers to His second advent. Not to His first. And I plainly indicated that in post #122.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-11-2010, 02:13 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,165,312 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Just as Jesus' title 'Son of Man' refers to His humanity, to the fact that He is a man, so also His title 'Son of God' refers to His deity, to the fact that He is God.
That statement is pure nonsense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There are five sonships of Christ. He was the Son of God from eternity past, but He became the Son of Man by incarnation (John 20:17 - speaking as the Son of Man).
Well, thanks for helping my case. John 20:17:

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

My father and your (Mike's) father. My God and your (Mike's) God. God's God and, no, wait. God doesn't have a God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
1] Son of God. This sonship declares Christ to be the only begotten who is the unique Son, the first-begotten from all eternity (Matthew 16:16). This does not mean that the deity of Jesus was born or created at any time, for He has always existed. The relationship between the First and Second Persons of the trinity is not to be thought of as in a human father and son relationship. God the Father is not really a Father, and God the Son is not really a Son. This is language of acommodation within a plan in which the salvation of man is the issue. The First Person of the Godhead is the author of the plan and therefore, the authority within that plan. The Second Person of the Trinity agreed to come into the world as a member of the human race and subject Himself to the Fathers will. Jesus' title as Son of God means that He has the same nature as God. In other words, He IS God. Just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are God. The three together are ONE God.
I'm going to ignore the incomprehensible nonsense in most of that paragraph. I'll just focus on the last sentence. You say, "The 3 together are one God." No, the three together are not one God. We are to be one with the father just as Yeshua was.

John 17:21. That all of them (believers) may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
2] The Son of Adam, the Son of Man. This title refers to His human nature (Matthew 8:20). 3] The Son of Abraham. This title of sonship relates Jesus to the Abrahamic covenant (Matthew 1:1).
Father Abraham had many sons. Do you remember that song? Yes, The Son of man had to come from Adam, Abraham, and David. The Jews would need to know that, wouldn't they?

He was the Son.

Still, no God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
4] The Son of David. Jesus is here related to the Davidic covenant (Matthew 21:9).
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord. Still, nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
5] The Son of Mary. This Sonship relates Jesus to the incarnation (Matthew 1:25).

Really? You get God out of this??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again, as man, Jesus has the title Son of Man. As God, Jesus has the title, Son of God.
Like your first sentence in this post, this is just pure............nevermind.

'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh' is Hebrew and is translated 'I AM WHO I AM'.

'Ego eimi' is Greek and is translated as 'I am.' In the context of John 8:58 'Jesus said to them, ''Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.'', it is a clear reference to His deity. He didn't say ''before Abraham was, I was''. He said, ''before Abraham was, I am.'' This is the Jehovistic 'I AM.' The eternally self-existant one.

The Jews had said prior to Jesus' statement, ''You are not yet fifty years old and have You seen Abraham?'' (verse 57). They thought that Jesus was only a man. When Jesus said, ''Before Abraham was born, I am,'' He obviously was refering to His pre-existing Abraham and this is a reference to His deity. And the Jews knew what He meant because they tryed to stone Him.
Oh, I believe he pre-existed. That's not the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
John 10:33 states that the Jews knew that Jesus was claiming equality with God. '...and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.''
I think we need to put John 10:33 in context and remember how angry the elite religious Jews were that a poor carpenter from a nowhere town was claiming to be superior to them. Way superior, but not God, just God's Son (the ONE) as it says if you read down to John 10:36 when Jesus said "I am the son of God":

31 The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God (or a god; see verses below and how they relate).
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods (Psalm 82:6)?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken),
36 say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Similarly, in John 8:24 Jesus said, ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am (the word 'He' is not found in the original), you shall die in your sins. This again in context, is the Jehovistic 'I am'.
Again, he said "I am" or "ego eimi." Not, "I am Yahweh" or anything to do with Ehyeh. Do you want to believe the blind man in John 9:9 was also God? He also said, "I am" (he), "ego eimi."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus Christ is Jehovah, just as the Father and the Holy Spirit are Jehovah.

Isaiah 45:21-23 refer to Jesus Christ. ''Declare and set forth your case; Indeed, let them consult together. Who has announced this from of old? Who has long since declared it? Is it not I, the LORD (Yah-weh)? And there is no other God (Elohim) besides Me, a righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me. 22] Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. 23] I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back. That to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.

That Jesus Christ is lord>>>>>>to the glory of God the Father. Philippians 2:11

AND

He will deliver his kingdom and his rule will end when he gives all things back to his Father. That's scripture.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes it does. And I did a thread on it. Here it is. Read the first post carefully. It's short.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/1097327-jesus-christ-will-reign-forever.html
There's a lot of good posts in that thread. Read away, readers of threads.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-11-2010, 02:38 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,278,716 times
Reputation: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Just as Jesus' title 'Son of Man' refers to His humanity, to the fact that He is a man, so also His title 'Son of God' refers to His deity, to the fact that He is God.
The term "son of man" means "son of man". The term "son of God" means "son of God".

Why complicate it? One refers to human descent the other to spiritual descent.

Simple.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-11-2010, 02:41 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,278,716 times
Reputation: 840
Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
Father Abraham had many sons. Do you remember that song?
"Right foot - left foot, head up - head down, spin around - SIT DOWN!!!!"

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-11-2010, 02:55 AM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
3,381 posts, read 3,165,312 times
Reputation: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
"Right foot - left foot, head up - head down, spin around - SIT DOWN!!!!"


That's the one.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top