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Old 11-02-2010, 08:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by InsaneInDaMembrane View Post
In the book of Acts, Peter the Disciple gives a sermon that appears to reflect the EARLIEST Christian view of Jesus. He says in Acts 2:36:

"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Later in the same book (Acts 13:32-33), Paul has this to say:

And we declare to you glad tidings—that promise which was made to the fathers. God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:


‘ You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.

Note that the "raised up" refers to Jesus' alleged resurrection mentioned in verse 30. To the early Christians, Jesus becomes the "son of God" after the resurrection. Before that he was a mere man that God empowered to do great things who was killed by the religious leaders in his prime. God thus, vindicates him by raising him from the dead and then giving him an elevated title - son of God.

Did the early Christian stop there? No. It was an easy leap from there to believe that Jesus must have been the son of God even earlier than that. For those, the belief was that Jesus became the son of God at his baptism. Not surprisingly, the Gospel of Mark, the first Gospel reflect this. In Mark 1:11 at Jesus' baptism, God thunders down the confirmation that Jesus is his son. Here, it does not mean that a "son" in a father participating in a sexual act to bring about a son. "Son," in biblical terms can mean a variety of things, simply one chosen by God to do his will on earth as a type of intermediary. Outside of this, the book of Mark gives no idea that Jesus is more than just a special man, chosen of God at the start of his ministry to be his agent (anointed messiah/son) on earth. There is no Virgin birth or Christians story involved or needed and so Mark begins with Jesus' adult ministry when he is officially anointed as son of God.

The progression moves from there when we get to the later Gospel of Luke, for example. Here Jesus is the son of God at his birth. Luke then goes on to provide an explanation as to how this was possible and the explanation is found in the oft disputed and incredulous story of the "Virgin birth." Jesus comes into existence AT his special birth when the Holy Spirit of God impregnates Mary.

By the time the Gospel of John rolls around years after the appearance of Mark's Gospel, Jesus is regarded as more than just a mere man who is chosen by God to do his bidding. His has no genesis and has always been with God and frankly, is God himself by extrapolation. He THEN comes into the world AS God in human flesh even though john does not tell us how. We are left to assume John is working with the understood version that he was born of a virgin, but actually existed in eternity past.

This view became the standard within later Christianity. Jesus was the preexistent Word of God who became flesh. As we have seen, however, this was apparently not the original view held by the early Christians. The divinity of Jesus was a later Christian invention found only in one Gospel, John.
The focus of this thread is that Jesus Christ is proven to be God from the OLD TESTAMENT. And that God is triune. To attempt to use the NEW TESTAMENT which expands upon the revelation of the Deity of Christ, to disprove what has already been proven in the OLD TESTAMENT is illogical. And again, off topic.

The angel of the LORD is a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ. The angel of the LORD is identified as Yah-weh (Jehovah). Refer back to the original post for the Scriptures.

Jesus Christ has eternally been the Son of God because it has eternally been in the mind of God that the Second Person of the Trinity would come into the world as a man to carry out His part in the plan of salvation for man. God the Father is not really a Father and the deity of Jesus Christ - God the Son is not really a Son. This is language of accomodation within a divine plan to define the relationship between the First and Second Persons of the trinity in relation to their respective roles in their eternal plan of salvation in which the Second Person of the Godhead agreed to come into the world as a member of the human race and pay the penalty for mans sins.
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Old 11-02-2010, 10:12 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE

Yes. I was about 85 AD, as reflected in John's gospel, that Jesus was claimed to be a co-eternal (?) divinity along with God. And it wasn't until about 250 AD that the Trinity idea was introduced.

Although many try to argue that the term "God of God" proves Jesus' divinity, it doesn't.

"The title "son of God" was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God. Angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, were called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; Psalm 88:7; Wisdom 2:13; etc.). In a similar manner it was given to Israelites (Deuteronomy 14:50); and of Israel, as a nation, we read: "And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord:Israel is my son, my firstborn. I have said to thee: Let my son go, that he may serve me" (Exodus 4:22 sq.)." (Catholic Encyclopedia, and elsewhere)


Jesus Christ is not 'a son of God'. He is 'The Son of God'. A title for His deity.

The term 'Bene ha elohim' in the Old Testament is used for angels. Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 do not refer to the sons of Seth.

Job 1:6 'Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7] And the LORD said to Satan, ''From where do you come?'' Then Satan answered the LORD and said, ''From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.''

Job 2:1 ''AGAIN there was a day when the sons of God came tp present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present themselves before the LORD. 2] And the LORD said to Satan, ''Where have you come from? Then Satan answered the LORD and said, ''From roaming about on the earth, and walking around on it.''

Compare Job 1:6 and 2:1 with Job 38:4-7. ''Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth! Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5] Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7] When the morning stars sang together. And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 are angelic convocations in which the angels, including Satan were summoned to appear together before the LORD.

The Psalm that you and the New Advent Bible/Encyclopedia are attempting to reference is not Psalms 88:7 but rather, Psalms 89:6

Psalms 89:6 'For who in the skies is comparable to the LORD? Who among the sons of the mighty is like the LORD? This is a reference to angels.

'Wisdom' is apocrypha.

Deuteronomy 4:22 refers to Israel's privileges as adopted sons. Israel has a national adoption as shown in Romans 9:3b-4.

Romans 9:3b '...my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4] who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5] whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
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Old 11-02-2010, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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[quote=Mike555;16494652]The focus of this thread is that Jesus Christ is proven to be God from the OLD TESTAMENT.

RESPONSE:

Are you going to start doing that soon?

Why don't you begin by citing the OldTestament passage that clearly states that the messiah is going to be divine?

Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-02-2010 at 01:07 PM.. Reason: typo
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Old 11-02-2010, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Oregon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Jesus Christ is not 'a son of God'. He is 'The Son of God'. A title for His deity.

The term 'Bene ha elohim' in the Old Testament is used for angels. Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 do not refer to the sons of Seth.

Job 1:6 'Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 7] And the LORD said to Satan, ''From where do you come?'' Then Satan answered the LORD and said, ''From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.''

Job 2:1 ''AGAIN there was a day when the sons of God came tp present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present themselves before the LORD. 2] And the LORD said to Satan, ''Where have you come from? Then Satan answered the LORD and said, ''From roaming about on the earth, and walking around on it.''

Compare Job 1:6 and 2:1 with Job 38:4-7. ''Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth! Tell Me, if you have understanding. 5] Who set its measurements, since you know? Or who laid its cornerstone, 7] When the morning stars sang together. And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 1:6 and Job 2:1 are angelic convocations in which the angels, including Satan were summoned to appear together before the LORD.

The Psalm that you and the New Advent Bible/Encyclopedia are attempting to reference is not Psalms 88:7 but rather, Psalms 89:6

Psalms 89:6 'For who in the skies is comparable to the LORD? Who among the sons of the mighty is like the LORD? This is a reference to angels.

'Wisdom' is apocrypha.

Deuteronomy 4:22 refers to Israel's privileges as adopted sons. Israel has a national adoption as shown in Romans 9:3b-4.

Romans 9:3b '...my kinsmen according to the flesh, 4] who are Israelites, to whom belongs the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the temple service and the promises, 5] whose are the fathers, and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh, who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen.
RESPONSE:

God had lots of sons. Jesus and Moses being, perhaps, the most famous.

Captialization was introduced in the 12th century. Captializing the "g" in God does not change the honorary title.
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Old 11-02-2010, 03:56 PM
 
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[quote=ancient warrior;16498867]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The focus of this thread is that Jesus Christ is proven to be God from the OLD TESTAMENT.

RESPONSE:

Are you going to start doing that soon?

Why don't you begin by citing the OldTestament passage that clearly states that the messiah is going to be divine?
The fact that Jesus is shown to be God has been well proven by my orignal post. Only those with a bias against the trinity would continue to deny that.

However. Isaiah 9:6 clearly refers to the Messiah and to the fact that the Messiah is God. 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders (this is a reference to Jesus' rulership from the throne of David during the Millennal reign of Christ); And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore.

The term 'mighty God' is unquestionably applied to the true God in Isaiah 10:21 'A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.

Regarding the term 'Eternal Father', Barnes' Notes on the Bible says the following...

Excerpt:
The Hebrews used the term father in a great variety of senses - as a literal father, a grandfather, an ancestor, a ruler, an instructor.
Isaiah 9:6 Bible Commentary

Those of you who are reading this thread will, if you will abandon your bias against the triune nature of God, if you will set aside your skepticism and simply open your eyes to what is right in front of you, understand that the Scriptures clearly reveal the deity of Jesus Christ.
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Old 11-02-2010, 04:15 PM
 
17,928 posts, read 13,613,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
RESPONSE:

God had lots of sons. Jesus and Moses being, perhaps, the most famous.

Captialization was introduced in the 12th century. Captializing the "g" in God does not change the honorary title.
The title 'Son of God' refers to the deity of Christ and is not honorary. I have already explained why Jesus is the Son of God. Men are only sons of God by adoption. That applies both to the Church-age believer and to Israel.

Jesus is the Son of God because of the eternally existing plan of salvation in which the Second Person of the trinity agreed to become a man and come into the world to pay for mans sins. (Philippians 2:5-9). As deity, He has always, eternally existed along with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

The Gospel of John focuses on Jesus Christ as the Son of God. The title of His deity. Whereas the Gospel of Luke focuses on His humanity to which His title 'Son of Man' refers.
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Old 11-02-2010, 11:05 PM
 
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The Nicene/Constantinople Creed of a Trinity actually opposes the teachings of Christ.

"...Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."

...take this cup, with or without coffee.
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Old 11-02-2010, 11:57 PM
 
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The Triune Personhood of God from the Old Testament

Anyone that is stuck on "God" (the person) and not "God" (the message of truth and love) has missed the entire point. 3 Gods in 1 IS NOT the issue. Jesus being God or not is NOT the ISSUE!!! The issue is simple and plain. Love is above all else. Peace and the respect of others' free will is above all else. "Evil" is only allowed to exists because we have the free will to create it. If "God" stopped us from doing evil things, then "God" would be violating the same free will that "he" gave us.

We are called "children of God" simply because we are "young Gods". Eventually, we will grow up to be fully ascended beings (just like our "God" parents). We are all on an evolutionary path that is FAR from over. There are "others" (religions call them angels) that are further along than us on this evolutionary path. They have helped us in both the past and the present (and will continue to help us in the future).

With that said, Jesus made it clear that "God" was in him (yet he was not "God"). Even an atheist like myself can understand this perfectly clear message. Why is this simple message of being one with the "creative spirit of the cosmos" (without actually being said spirit) so difficult for some Christians to understand?
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Old 11-02-2010, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
The Nicene/Constantinople Creed of a Trinity actually opposes the teachings of Christ.

"...Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and Him only shalt thou serve."

...take this cup, with or without coffee.
Ah, Babylon.

If our soul's eternal salvation rested on men's interpretations of scripture, I'd be without hope right now. Thank God it's not in our hands.

I'll take the coffee with milk and lots of sugar.
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Old 11-03-2010, 12:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herefornow View Post
I'll take the coffee with milk and lots of sugar.
Vanilla Caramel, coffee-mate!

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