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Old 11-04-2010, 09:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
So which one is it? Did Jesus say he was "God", or did the OT say that Jesus was "God"? Or are you saying that Jesus said he was "God" in the OT?
Both the Old and New Testaments attest to the deity of Jesus Christ, and during His incarnation, Jesus did refer to His deity. John 8:24 and John 8:58 where Jesus refers to Himself as 'I am' are references to His deity, and to which the Jews reacted by trying to stone Him for saying that He was God (John 8:59; John 10:33)

The deity of Christ is affirmed in Isaiah 40:3 in which the prophecy of the Messiah who was to be heralded by John the Baptist, identifies the Messiah as being God. Compare with Matt 3:3, Mark 1:3; Luke 3:4, and John 1:23.
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Mike555 posted:

>>The precise term 'sons of God' in the Hebrew of the Old Testament refers only to angels.<<

RESPONSE:

Are you going to tell us now that Adam was really an angel?

Luke 3:38 "son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God. "
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:36 AM
 
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First you say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The One true God has revealed Himself in many ways.
Then you say:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I have already provided you with two sites which show that the true God is known by many different names in the Old Testament.
But we must remember this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Again. There is one True God, and then there are false gods. Idols.
So what you are saying is that "God" can reveal himself in "many ways", goes by "many different names", and is still all one person. Yet, there are also "false Gods"? Ummmmmm, how is it that you know which "God" is "false" and which is one of your God's many different forms?

I'm sorry, but you are making a stronger case for Christian polytheism/paganism moreso than you are a "Triune Personhood of God". "Many different names" and "many ways" sounds like a belief in "many Gods" (more than three) to me. Just saying...
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Old 11-04-2010, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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1 John 3

"Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called,and should be the sons of God." (DR)

Then we are "sons of God" but not angels.
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Oregon
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Mike555 tries to tell us that Is 40:3 proves that Jesus is divine.

Let's look.

Is 40:3-5

3 A voice cries out:
‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord,
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill be made low;
the uneven ground shall become level,
and the rough places a plain.
Then the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
and all people shall see it together,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.’

Footnote from the New American Bible on IS 40:3.5:
"The figurative language here describes the actual return of the exiles from Babylon to Jerusalem. It is the Lord who leads them; their road is made easy for them. Matthew 3:3 and parallels see in these verses a prophecy of the Baptizer and Christ."

Actually, this is an example of Matthew trying to create a prophecy from a snippet of the Old Testament, like "Raphel weeping for her children", or "I have called my son out of Egypt" or Jesus entering Jerusalem riding on two animals.

Last edited by ancient warrior; 11-04-2010 at 10:06 AM.. Reason: Removal of sizing inserts
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:12 AM
 
5,646 posts, read 8,724,733 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Both the Old and New Testaments attest to the deity of Jesus Christ
I thought this thread was about the "Triune Personhood of God from the OT". Why are you talking about the NT and "Jesus-God/deity"? The bottom line is that the Trinity was formed 300 years after Jesus died (let's just assume for one minute that a deity can die ).

Quote:
The doctrine developed from the biblical language used in New Testament passages such as the baptismal formula in Matthew 28:19 and took substantially its present form by the end of the 4th century
Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Quote:
The Council of Nicea affirmed the deity of Jesus Christ and established an official definition of the Trinity—the deity of The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit under one Godhead, in three co-equal and co-eternal Persons.
What occurred at the Council of Nicea?

Even official Christian websites admit that "Jesus-God" and the Trinity became official in 325 ad. Case closed.
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:44 AM
 
17,928 posts, read 13,613,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
Mike555 posted:

>>The precise term 'sons of God' in the Hebrew of the Old Testament refers only to angels.<<

RESPONSE:

Are you going to tell us now that Adam was really an angel?

Luke 3:38 "son of Enos, son of Seth, son of Adam, son of God. "
No I am not. I am saying that Jesus' title as 'Son of God' refers to His deity, as opposed to His title as 'Son of Man' which refers to His humanity.

I am further saying that in the Hebrew of the Old Testament, the term 'Bene ha Elohim' is used only for angels. Just for informations sake, in the Greek of the New Testament Luke 3:38 doesn't have the word 'son'. It just says 'of Enos, of Seth, of Adam, of God.'

This has nothing to do with the fact that Israel had an adoption which makes them sons of the Lord God. But the term 'Bene ha Elohim is never used for Israel.

Jesus is the Son of God by virtue of His part in the plan of God to come into the world as a member of the human race in order to provide salvation. The title refers to His deity. Believers are children of God by way of adoption.

Check out a Hebrew/English Interlinear Bible and you will never see the term 'Bene ha Elohim' used for any but angels. The term is used only in Genesis 6:2,4; Job 1:6, Job 2:1; and Job 38:7

Am I now clear on this? Israel has its election and adoption as a son of the LORD God, the church-age believer is elected and adopted as a child of God, and Jesus Christ is the UNIQUE Son of God by way of the virgin birth in fulfillment of an eternally existing plan of the eternal triune God in which the Second Person of the trinity agreed to come into the world to be the Savior of the world.
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Old 11-04-2010, 11:00 AM
 
17,928 posts, read 13,613,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbancharlotte View Post
I thought this thread was about the "Triune Personhood of God from the OT". Why are you talking about the NT and "Jesus-God/deity"? The bottom line is that the Trinity was formed 300 years after Jesus died (let's just assume for one minute that a deity can die ).


Trinity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


What occurred at the Council of Nicea?

Even official Christian websites admit that "Jesus-God" and the Trinity became official in 325 ad. Case closed.
I have provided scriptural proof of the deity of Christ in the Old Testament and of the fact that the Holy Spirit is separate from the Father and the Son. But you believe what you want.

And no, deity cannot die. That is one reason why Jesus had to become a member of the human race.
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Old 11-04-2010, 12:06 PM
 
17,928 posts, read 13,613,303 times
Reputation: 5741
Quote:
Originally Posted by ancient warrior View Post
Mike555 tries to tell us that Is 40:3 proves that Jesus is divine.

Let's look.

Is 40:3-5

3 A voice cries out:
‘In the wilderness prepare the way of the Lord,
make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
Every valley shall be lifted up,
and every mountain and hill be made low;
the uneven ground shall become level,
and the rough places a plain.
Then the glory of the Lord shall be revealed,
and all people shall see it together,
for the mouth of the Lord has spoken.’

Footnote from the New American Bible on IS 40:3.5:
"The figurative language here describes the actual return of the exiles from Babylon to Jerusalem. It is the Lord who leads them; their road is made easy for them. Matthew 3:3 and parallels see in these verses a prophecy of the Baptizer and Christ."

Actually, this is an example of Matthew trying to create a prophecy from a snippet of the Old Testament, like "Raphel weeping for her children", or "I have called my son out of Egypt" or Jesus entering Jerusalem riding on two animals.
The dual nature of the prophecy of Isaiah 40:3, that it concerns the return of the exiles from Babylon and the Messiahs heralding by John the Baptist is discussed at the following site.

Isaiah 40:3 Bible Commentary
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Old 11-04-2010, 01:26 PM
 
17,928 posts, read 13,613,303 times
Reputation: 5741
This is the original post repeated, with some additions to it.


The reality of the triune Personhood of God, so clearly presented in the New Testament, is established in the Old Testament. That God is a unified One may not have been clearly understood by the Jews, but neither do many people today understand it. Nevertheless, the Old Testament Scriptures have established the plurality as well as the oneness of God.

1] The use of plural together with singular noun forms.

In Genesis 1:26-27, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, and Isaiah 6:8, God speaks with reference to Himself in terms of plurality. He uses the words, 'us' and 'our'.

Take a look at Genesis 1:26-27.

Gen 1:26 'Then God said' The word 'God' here is in the Hebrew, Elohim. EL is the singular form and Elowahh is an expansion of El. Some say that Elowahh is a dual form of El. I have found some information that there is a word -Elohiayim which is the dual form. Dual meaning two. Which ever is more correctly identifed as a dual form, the word Elohim is plural, and in the ordinary sense means 'gods'. But it is specifically used, especially with the article, of the Supreme God. It is sometimes used with regard to human judges - men in authority. But that it is used for the Supreme God is undeniable.

Then God - Elohim - said, ''Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness;' God is not talking to angels. Angels had no part in the creation process. Nor was God referring to Himself with the royal 'We'.

Gen 1:27 'And God - Elohim- created man in His (His is singular in contrast with Elohim which is plural) own image, in the image of God He created them.

In this passage, God is then referred to both in plural and singular forms.


2] The Oneness of God.

The Hebrew word used to describe God as One, is echad. A comparision of Genesis 2:24 and Deuteronomy 6:4 is in order.

Genesis 2:24 'For this cause a man shall leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and they shall become one - echad flesh.

Don't get hung up on the word flesh when relating this passage to Deut 6:4. The idea is that in Genesis 2:24, two are united as one in marriage. And in Deut 6:4, the Persons of the Godhead are united in their essence.

Deut 6:4 'Hear, O Israel! The LORD (Yah-weh) is our God - Eloheinu - Elohim, the LORD (Yah-weh) is one - echad.

Deut 6:4 shows the distinction between the plurality of God (Elohim), and His oneness. A united oneness between different persons as seen in Genesis 1:26-27. God is united by His essence - His nature. All three Persons of the Trinity have in equal amounts: Sovereignty, Righteousness, Justice, Eternal life, Love, Omniscience, Omnipresence, Omnipotence, Immutability, and Veracity.

There are those (aren't there always) who will argue against this proving anything, but compare this with Genesis 1:26-27 shown at the top of the post. And compare it also with the section below.


3] The pre-incarnation appearances of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament, known as Theophanies. Jesus Christ as the angel of the Lord.

In passages such as Genesis 16:7-13; 18-19; 22:11-18; Exodus 3:2-6; 23:20-23; Judges 6:11-14, 20-22; and 13:21-23 God, specifically Jesus Christ, the revealed Person of the Godhead, appears as the angel of the Lord. He appears as a man and is addressed as God.

In Genesis Chapter 18, The Lord, as the angel of the Lord, appeared to Abraham. Three men approached Abraham as he was sitting at his tent door. Two of these were angels, the angels who went and rescued Lot in Sodom so that it could be destroyed, and the other was the Lord Jesus Christ Himself as the angel of the Lord. Not an actual angel, just a title for His pre-incarnation appearances.

Gen 18:1 'Now the LORD (Yah-weh -Jehovah) appeared to him (Abraham) by the oaks of Mamre, while he was sitting at the tent door in the heat of the day.

Realize what this is saying. God - Jehovah appeared as a man and was offered water and bread by Abraham in verses 4 and 5. God the Father never appears as a man. Yet here is God - Jehovah, being offered food and drink. This is Jesus Christ. The revealed Person of the trinity.

After departing from Abraham, the LORD - Jehovah - Jesus Christ, went to Sodom and destroyed it. Genesis 19:24 'Then the LORD (Yah-weh) rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (Yah-weh) out of heaven.

That passage says that the LORD (Yah-weh in human form as the angel of the LORD, a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ) rained down fire from the Lord (Yah-weh) from out of heaven. Yah-weh in bodily form rained down fire from Yah-weh in heaven.

In Exodus chapter 3, the angel of the LORD appeared to Moses in a blazing fire from the midst of a bush and identified Himself as 'I AM WHO I AM.' The eternal self-existing one. Yah-weh - Jehovah. The angel of the LORD is always Jesus Christ in a Theophany - a pre-incarnation appearance.


4] The Holy Spirit.

Whereas the Father and Jesus Christ are both referred to as Yah-weh as shown in the above passages, the Holy Spirit, the third Person of the Trinity is referred to by various titles.

Genesis 1:2 'The Spirit of God - Elohim.

Isaiah 63:10 'The Holy Spirit'. And here, the Holy Spirit is grieved - atsab- displease, grieve, hurt, make, be sorry, vex, worship, wrest. Only a Person can be grieved. Not a force or an influence.

Judges 6:34 'The Spirit of the LORD (Yah-weh).

Isaiah 61:1 'The Spirit of the Lord (a·do·nai ) God (Yah-weh).

The Holy Spirit is always distinquished by titles such as these, from the other two Persons of the trinity.

The triune nature of God which is so clearly seen in the New Testament is also well established in the Old Testament.

Now the additions are from Post #35...

Isaiah 9:6 clearly refers to the Messiah and to the fact that the Messiah is God. 'For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders (this is a reference to Jesus' rulership from the throne of David during the Millennal reign of Christ); And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace. 7] There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace, On the throne of David and over his kingdom, To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness From then on and forevermore.

The term 'mighty God' is unquestionably applied to the true God in Isaiah 10:21 'A remnant will return, the remnant of Jacob, to the mighty God.

Regarding the term 'Eternal Father', Barnes' Notes on the Bible says the following...

Excerpt:
The Hebrews used the term father in a great variety of senses - as a literal father, a grandfather, an ancestor, a ruler, an instructor.
Isaiah 9:6 Bible Commentary

And the dual prophesy of Isaiah 40:3 which while it addresses the return of the Jews from Babylonian captivity, also fortells the fact that John the Baptist would herald the coming of the Messiah, who is called God in the prophecy.

All four Gospels refer back to Isaiah 40:3 which foretells the coming of the Messiah and calls Him God. ''A voice is calling, ''Clear the way for the LORD (Yah-weh) in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God (le·lo·hei·nu - Elohim) 4] ''Let every valley be lifted up, And every mountain and hill be made low; And let the rough ground become a plain, And the rugged terrain a broad valley. 5] Then the glory of the LORD wil be revealed, And all flesh will see it together; For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.''

The information presented would convince any reasonable person of the deity of Christ and that God is a triune being. There is, however, no shortage of die-hard critics and skeptics who will never open their eyes to what is right in front of them. To continue on would be pointless. And so for this thread, I have said enough. People will either believe the Scriptures or they won't.
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